School Told to Call Kids ‘Purple Penguins’ Because ‘Boys and Girls’ Is Not Inclusive

[The Human Q-Tip]

Recent studies shoe parental bias causes boys to not play with dolls. They got. A load of babies and randomly put them in pink and blue clothes. When left to play with a parent of one of the group the" boys" had the dolls taken off them whenever they picked them up. The "girls" were allowed to play with anything

And other studies have shown that boys and girls will not play in the same manner even when parental factors are removed. So yes, there are parental influences that can steer children, but that does not mean that the differences present in nature don't exist as well.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I'm pretty sure it's well established that gender identity can be different from biological sex, and these differences can pop up at a young age. Why not try to be accepting of children as much as possible? I'm really not seeing the problem here. The wussification of America? Hell, we could use a few fewer wars...

If you want to see some fun, get some generally-aligned feminists in a room with some trans people, and just start the conversation....

Feminists will tell you (correctly, in general) that people of either biological gender may have traits that society has characterized as "male" or "female". Their solution is to quit identify personality traits as male or female at all, and simply accept that a range of behaviors is acceptable for either gender. This takes care of the "act like a man/boys don't play with dolls" issue.

But at a very core level, this is the opposite of what trans people are arguing. They'll say that because they have personality traits or interests that society has generally associated with one gender, that means they actually are that gender. In other words, the feminists are trying to de-emphasize gender roles, and the trans people are doing the opposite.

I think if your goal truly is to be as accepting of children as possible -- which I don't think is necessarily always a good thing but whatever -- then the feminist position of not forcing males/females into specific expectations makes a lot more sense. And I do believe that transgender inclinations are a mental disorder, not just the product of a choice. The rate of other mental illnesses among transgender people is very high, and there is a lot of data that gender reassignment can actually backfire in terms of the mental health of the person in question.

 

[The Oi]

@The Human Q-Tip,

Out of curiosity, which behaviors do you think we shouldn't be accepting of in children? I'm sure you agree that violence, abuse, selfishness, etc shouldn't be tolerated. But are you referring to other things as well?

@David.

Bullshit aside, I agree that the standard macho, man up, etc bullshit is overall bad for society. I think your assessment on that is dead on.

But I don't think the solution is annihilating gender altogether as if there's no such thing and pretending that the nature aspect of testosterone and estrogen doesn't largely drive the common basic personality traits of each sex/gender regardless of nurture.

I think the solution is to acknowledge that there are innate differences between boys and girls that will cause them to develop in different ways. And to acknowledge that the natural development of males is different than that of females and should be acknowledged and embraced, while also acknowledging that it's not only ok...but great if certain kids are different. That they have different interests, different strengths, etc than their classmates of the same sex.

Redefine what's good about each gender and what's negative and work from there. Make macho bullshit not ok. Work against female insecurity as a response to the aggressive macho bullshit. Or harness the macho bullshit and teach boys to use their natural aggressiveness to their advantage in sports or other competition. Hell, if girls have it..teach them to do the same.

But don't pretend tendencies towards certain behaviors that should be accounted for can't and don't exist. Just redirect the negative aspects and stress they're unacceptable.

I maintain that gender neutrality is bullshit. Just redefine what's good and bad.

 

[-Akronite-]

I think people are neglecting the fact that there are gender neutral adults as well.

It isn't just male-male, female-female, male-female, female-male... There are people with male or female sex organs who don't identify with either gender, similar to being asexual, they are a-gender. To be honest, this was something that never really crossed my mind, as I always assumed transgendered just meant swapping from one to the other.

As things stand, I think it would be easier to identify groups by their sexual organs as it is a higher percentage indicator of fit, and deal with individual cases in a more flexible, open minded way. We are always looking for broad solutions that affect everyone when we could just deal with situations as they come and try to be less of dicks as we go.

Purple Penguins, even in context, is silly. But gender neutral people use "they" instead of he or she since English doesn't have neutral pronouns (there is "it," but that leads to objectification which defeats the purpose).

 

[Maximus]

Gender is your sexual identity. There are people in this world who aren't just gay, lesbian, or bi... but also carry mannerisms that are very different from their biological makeup.

So if my son identifies himself as a girl, should he be able to go to an all girls school?
What do you do about the lockerrooms/showers at school?
Should he be able to play in the WNBA?

I mean come on, even when I grew up in Cleveland I saw super fem men and super masculine women... This shouldn't be news to you unless you have lived in a very small town and rarely left it in your life.

Yeah, but they were still men and women...you said it yourself.

I do often think of one kid I taught some seven or so years ago. He transferred into my 8th grade class and I had heard he had been through one middle school a year. He was an African American boy but as feminine as can be. Dogs could tell he was not only gay but having gender identity issues by smell. He was also academically low and always talked loudly about how much he hated school.

Well, you drop a kid like that in a tough school with plenty of gang members, and I can tell why he was always on edge. If I tried talking to him about missing assignments or his wild emotional explosions, he would say I'm homophobic, racist, whatever. The kid left after about 8 weeks. No idea what became of him. I wondered if there IS a classroom on earth that could turn around how damaged he seemed to be.

If a classroom can prevent kids like that from tailspinning into what I witnessed, that's a step in the right direction. You would be shocked to know how many kids have some kind of a special need. But, all of the want to be treated as an individual and not just a face and name in the crowd.

He's gay, but he is still a boy. I see nothing wrong with you referring to him as one 10 times...makes more sense than calling him a purple penguin or monkey. Creating a zero tolerance environment for bullying seems like a better solution than taking the kids and giving them special treatment...i think that only spotlights them and can make them a bigger target.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

@The Human Q-Tip,

Out of curiosity, which behaviors do you think we shouldn't be accepting of in children? I'm sure you agree that violence, abuse, selfishness, etc shouldn't be tolerated. But are you referring to other things as well?

Obviously, there are a whole lot of things that children might do that we would consider wrong, so I don't believe that we should simply let them develop without guidance or discipline.

In terms of gender, I think part of a parental responsibility is educating children on the gender norms in society so they have a better chance of fitting in. That doesn't mean forcing them into rigid, extreme orthodoxy, but it does involve teaching a little boy what it means to be a man. So while "boys don't cry" isn't right, teaching a boy that he shouldn't be crying at everything is okay.

I also agree with what you directed at David. There are aspects of machismo and male stereotypes that can go overboard and be a negative, but there are other aspects that I think are positives. There is an element of the "macho" stereotype that includes not wanting to be a coward in front of other males, standing up for yourself and others, etc.. In the Marines, that was something that was deliberately cultivated. to the overall benefit of the organization -- and to the Marines as individuals. Same with many sports teams.

So, I think some aspects of "toughening up", etc., are positive for males in particular, and while some nutbags go overboard, that doesn't mean that the underlying concept is wrong.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I think people are neglecting the fact that there are gender neutral adults as well.

I think you're assuming a fact that some people may not accept as true. Regardless of whether or not someone considers themselves to be male or female, or whether they prefer the typical societal expectations of one gender over the other, that doesn't change the objective reality of what they actually are.

A woman who doesn't identify with the societal expectations of women is still a woman. She's just one that doesn't agree with those expectations.[/QUOTE]

 

[bcort]

Seems to me like we should be trying to change the perception of what boys and girls mean instead of dancing around it by calling everyone penguins.

 

[supergoat52]

I think you're assuming a fact that some people may not accept as true. Regardless of whether or not someone considers themselves to be male or female, or whether they prefer the typical societal expectations of one gender over the other, that doesn't change the objective reality of what they actually are.

A woman who doesn't identify with the societal expectations of women is still a woman. She's just one that doesn't agree with those expectations.

Honest question here, do you believe that it is impossible to have a male body and a feminine brain? It seems that you are bouncing between saying that this is a disorder that exists, and that it is a false disorder that doesn't exist. And to clarify what i mean, i mean a brain with female physical characteristics, where if a neuroscientist examined it they would conclude such things post-mortem.

 

[-Akronite-]

I think you're assuming a fact that some people may not accept as true. Regardless of whether or not someone considers themselves to be male or female, or whether they prefer the typical societal expectations of one gender over the other, that doesn't change the objective reality of what they actually are.

A woman who doesn't identify with the societal expectations of women is still a woman. She's just one that doesn't agree with those expectations.

[/QUOTE]

That's where the difference in gender and sex lies. I will not argue that a person with a vagina (unless a hermaphrodite) is a female sexually. But that does not mean that they psychologically identify with that.

Just because you haven't had any gender identity issues and can't relate doesn't mean people don't go through it. They don't choose to feel like women in a man's body (or whatever the situation is) any more than homosexuals choose to like dudes.

EDIT- For the record I am not an expert on these things and am honestly just now starting to wrap my head around it.

 

[supergoat52]

So if my son identifies himself as a girl, should he be able to go to an all girls school?
What do you do about the lockerrooms/showers at school?
Should he be able to play in the WNBA?

These problems really aren't problems if you take a bit of time to think of a solution.
1. If the school will allow him/her, depends on if they want to discriminate on gender, or on sex.
2. Whatever makes your son and his/her classmates comfortable.
3. No, a professional/semi-professional league would have to discriminate on sex, or it wouldn't work.

 

[Sumac13]

When looking at a person, their gender and sex blend together. Every culture has ideas as to what what the gender roles of the male and female sex should be. So when we see a person's sex, we make assumptions about their gender and what their behavior ought to be.

Not sure if this makes any sense:
I see a person's 'sex' as as their biological/genetic sex.
I see a person's 'gender' as their 'cultural' sex.

If that is the case, then it is not hard to imagine how there could be many more variants of 'gender' than 'sex', if people are willing to distinguish between the two. However, the number of gender variants is typically two due largely to societies equating sex with gender. Two sexes, therefore two genders.

But why does there need to only have to be two? "Just because thats the way it has always be done!", some will say. "Unnatural otherwise," others will claim. "Its liberals ruining society blah blah blah bullshit if you allow more," rant others. But really, why only two? Don't give God as an answer. You have to do better than that. Not saying there shouldn't be only two, but have a legitimately good reason for it if you are going to impose it. Pussification is not a good reason, either. At the other extreme, it can quickly get idiotic when parents want to see their child a special and unique and therefor will attempt to create a unique gender just for them. The two genders could quickly mushroom into 100000 genders.

While I get the idea behind the 'purple penguin,' I still think that gender and sex will forever be inextricably linked. Getting rid of gender specific pronouns is a losing proposition. I'm not bothered by 'some' of what people whine about being 'PC' bullshit (I get that a woman may not want to be referred to as 'Mrs.' or referred to by her husband's last name), but some of it is silly. I use the words chick, lady, or other -man words without a care.

That said, trying to be more accepting of gender should not come at the cost of acknowledging that there are biological differences in sexes as @The Oi noted. Channeling whatever predispositions one might have into something positive should be the goal.

 

[The Oi]

3. No, a professional/semi-professional league would have to discriminate on sex, or it wouldn't work.

Why wouldn't it work?

They don't choose to feel like women in a man's body (or whatever the situation is) any more than homosexuals choose to like dudes.

WHen people say they feel like a man in a woman's body, what do they mean? Do they mean that they wish they had a vagina and breasts? Does it mean they're attracted to men? Or does it mean that they feel and think the way they believe women feel and think?

My bottom line question is...if we move into a gender neutral society, how is this going to stop a male that wants to be a woman from wanting to be a woman or from feeling bad about wanting to be a woman?

There's some cognitive dissonance there that I can only assume is going to lend to confusion before the person even encounters someone that picks on them for wanting to be the opposite sex. If they have traits that are common to women...why can't we just say that they have traits that are common to women? Or just teach kids that these traits can be common to both genders even if they're not instinctive and just require some learning. And above all, just teach kids (as Max said) not to fucking pick on each other for being different!!!

Exactly what are we trying to prevent from happening by not referring to kids as male and female and acknowledging that they are LARGELY going to be physically and psychologically different from one another without any assistance from outside forces?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Honest question here, do you believe that it is impossible to have a male body and a feminine brain? And the clarify what i mean, i mean a brain with female physical characteristics, where if a neuroscientist examined it they would conclude such things post-mortem.

Going on your clarification, the answer would be yes. However, I don't believe that having a brain with more characteristics that are usually seen in a brain of a person of the opposite gender makes it a "female/feminine" brain. I think if you have a male body, you also have a male brain by definition. Just because a particular woman has a brain with a larger area devoted to special relationships (for example) does not make her a man.

There are a range of characteristics for female brains, and a range of characteristics for male brains. If you graph those, I suppose you'd get some kind of bell curve that would enable a neuroscientist to say "yes, this brain probably came from a female". But that doesn't make it a female's brain, because it may have come from a man whose brain was just at a different point on the bell curve.

It seems that you are bouncing between saying that this is a disorder that exists, and that it is a false disorder that doesn't exist.

No. I'm saying that there is a mental disorder that exists, but that it doesn't change the biological realities of what gender a person is.

A great many of the things that we identify as "male/female" -- including how we dress, speak, which names are male v. female, etc., are societal constructs. There is nothing biological that compels women to wear skirts and makeup, or to have longer hair than men. Or to have doors opened for them versus opening doors for others, and all those other social conventions. Many of those things vary by culture.

Those are different things than the brain differences that may mean that men and women tend to have differences in terms of ability to process special relationships or languages.

So when you have a man who wants to be called a by a woman's name, to wear his hair in a female style, to wear makeup and talk in a woman's voice, that's not something being dictated by biology. That is a mental disorder.

 

[supergoat52]

Going on your clarification, the answer would be yes. However, I don't believe that having a brain with more characteristics that are usually seen in a brain of a person of the opposite gender makes it a "female/feminine" brain. I think if you have a male body, you also have a male brain by definition. Just because a particular woman has a brain with a larger area devoted to special relationships (for example) does not make her a man.

I think this is a vast oversimplification of how the body works.

There are a range of characteristics for female brains, and a range of characteristics for male brains. If you graph those, I suppose you'd get some kind of bell curve that would enable a neuroscientist to say "yes, this brain probably came from a female". But that doesn't make it a female's brain, because it may have come from a man whose brain was just at a different point on the bell curve.

You are absolutely right about the ranges, that's exactly how it would look. Is it so preposterous to say that someone has feminine characteristics in a male brain though? It seems you are just stubbornly denying calling anything in an XY body feminine because "by definition it's male". If a guy has a hormone disorder and develops breasts is that not a typically feminine characteristic? If a hormonal exposure happens in a prenatal stage that causes the brain to develop as an average female brain despite being in a male body, is it so preposterous that the person would feel like a woman trapped in a man's body? Who are you to tell them "no you're a man cuz dicks", when everything else about their daily life feels like that of a woman? It is a real condition and a terrible one where you have to live a confusing life filled with other people telling you who you are.

No. I'm saying that there is a mental disorder that exists, but that it doesn't change the biological realities of what gender a person is.

A great many of the things that we identify as "male/female" -- including how we dress, speak, which names are male v. female, etc., are societal constructs. There is nothing biological that compels women to wear skirts and makeup, or to have longer hair than men. Or to have doors opened for them versus opening doors for others, and all those other social conventions. Many of those things vary by culture.

So when you have a man who wants to be called a by a woman's name, to wear his hair in a female style, to wear makeup and talk in a woman's voice, that's not something being dictated by biology. That is a mental disorder.

I don't mean to be rude here, but how the hell do you know that? Are you in their body? Is your experience as a straight male so complete that you know what is and isn't biologically based in gender queer people? You don't know what is and isn't biologically based about gender, and neither do i despite studying it a lot. It's a mystery that is just beginning to be unraveled, and the human brain is very very complicated. You're also insinuating that mental disorders don't have a biological basis, and having taken a course literally titled "Biological Basis of Psychopathology" I can assure you that that is false beyond words. Just because you can't see a brain doesn't mean it doesn't have physical characteristics that play a large role in governing how it works.