Scientists at CERN announce discovery: Higgs Boson.

[gourimoko]

The thread title is misleading. They tecnically haven't discovered the Higgs Boson. The have not directly measured it.

Up til about 3 days ago, you were correct. Yet this isn't the case this time. They have indeed discovered a new boson that meets the predicted mass-energy with a statistical sigma of 4.9. This meets the threshold necessary to announce a discovery by the particle physics community. There is simply no doubt. It is not an indirect measurement, at least within the context of using an accelerator, as they have actually observed the particle's decay.

However they have enough indirect empirical evidence to confidently infer its existence. There is a difference.

I wouldn't call it inference. They have gone through great lengths, trial and error, to model the most likely energy range in which the Higgs might exist. To find a particle at the correct mass-energy, that fits predictions, and decays into exactly what was expected is an observation. It was inferred prior to this experiment where we might find the Higgs, between 124-126 GeV. CERNs latest work is a direct observation confirming previous predictions.

 

[gourimoko]

let's flex those brain muscles boys...

...conversely, oddily enough this is not conclusive.

It's conclusive.. The Standard Model is correct. The good news about this is that we can now focus so much more of our attention towards what we now know isn't just theory. We can look to create a more complete theory of gravity.

 

[Bill Walton.]

It's conclusive.. The Standard Model is correct. The good news about this is that we can now focus so much more of our attention towards what we now know isn't just theory. We can look to create a more complete theory of gravity.

I was just trying to sound smart, I don't really know what I said.

It's called the God particle because it was so difficult to prove its existence. How they will use this knowledge is beyond me. Is there anyway to control gravity with this knowledge? I'd love to float around.


Stupid people, I am your leader, follow me.

 

[gourimoko]

Some say the higgs is made up of sub pieces, most say its a stand alone. The debate will go on for years.

Debate is over, we observed it's decay. It is the emergent quanta of the Higgs field, yet like other massive bosons it does indeed decay into other less massive subatomic particles. To give you an idea, the Higgs Boson is 130 times more massive than a proton.

Whats crazy is they built this building in switzelrand just 2 fucking years ago. Its like finding the holy grail of science. They engineered everything correctly. Incredible.

Yes. This. This is why we, as a species, need to devote so much more than we do presently towards theoretical physics. The fact that ITER isn't up and running, that there is no massive push towards fusion power, or that we don't have a national movement towards landing a man on Mars, we don't have massive grants towards the discovery of more tensile materials. The science community is still there, they haven't gone anywhere. It's just that since the end of the Cold War, the money has dried up.

Hopefully this discovery will validate spending large sums on meaningful science (and not just medicine).

 

[gourimoko]

There's still the problem of trying to unify all Four Fundamental Forces of physics in one, elegant equation. I imagine the discovery of the Higgs-Boson might give insights into just how gravity fits in with the other three (electromagnetism, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

There's also the problem of trying to unify General Relativity (how things work in the "macro" universe) and Quantum Mechanics (how things work in the "micro" universe) in one, elegant equation. Since these two scientific theories have been demonstrated to be accurate to the 20th+ decimal place, how is it they can be so at odds with each other... and at what point (and why) does one give way to the other?

Precisely. This is what the Higgs discovery will ultimately lead to, a unified theory of gravity. From there we get to a more complete and elegant Standard Model incorporating other particles not yet discovered, including the graviton and resolving inconsistencies at higher energies.

We'll see... but this is a huge step towards that goal.

To those wondering: "okay now what can we do with this?" Well, there probably will be no immediate applications. The long-term possibilities are immense, but we would need a great deal more scientific discovery. Just understand that this is the process by which all matter obtains it's mass and the same process by which any massive object is subjected to inertia. It may be possible to effect those processes, which would radically change the world we live in.

An analogy was made online comparing the discovery of the Higgs and the discovery of radiation in 1895... 50 years after that discovery, we detonated a nuclear bomb over Hiroshima. 50 years after that, we have nations of the world nearly dependent upon nuclear energy. Don't forget MRIs, PET scans, lasers, etc. All a result of the discovery of radiation. The discovery of the Higgs probably won't be as monumental, but who can really say.

 

[Stark]

 

[Damage]

The thread title is misleading. They tecnically haven't discovered the Higgs Boson. The have not directly measured it.

However they have enough indirect empirical evidence to confidently infer its existence. There is a difference.

99.99997% correct.

EDIT: Higgs Boson SAParticle is 99.99997% correct, not you

 

[slp447]

It's conclusive.. The Standard Model is correct. The good news about this is that we can now focus so much more of our attention towards what we now know isn't just theory. We can look to create a more complete theory of gravity.

Gour, I hate to correct you here but the scientists at CERN have still not determined whether it is in fact the Higgs Boson. They have discovered a new boson, that has the mass and decay properties of the Higgs, but until they measure its spin they cannot be sure if it is the Higgs predicted by the Standard Model. If they can confirm that the spin of the new boson is zero, they will essentially confirm the Standard Model. If the spin is measured to be 1 or 2, this will open the door for the possibilities for dark matter to sneak its way into the Standard.

 

[jvlgato]

The entire thing you just posted is in a different language to me.

right, but what does this all mean now as far as GOD/Evolution is concerned?

AND,,,what can we do with this discovery now? Will it be of any use to us in any way possible?

There is a reason I got a C in physics.

The Big Bang Theory is going to have a field day with this. I see at least one episode about it coming next season.

The important question is "now what?" or "what's next?"

So here's my understanding of it, in terms we can understand. Real scientists, I've taken some liberties with poetic license, but I think this works. Feel free to correct or elaborate as necessary.

The Higgs boson is Kyrie irving in the Cavs' universe. He gives us substance and mass, and without him, our team is just a bunch of empty forces interacting with each other but with no real substance. We have long predicted that such a player should exist, and had a hypothetical understanding of what we needed in such a player, but we could only have him with a very high energy draft pick. When we drafted that player, we thought he fit perfectly into the model we created, but until proven last year, it was only hypothetical.

Sure, we've had the four forces on our team. We had Anthony Parker, the Weak Force. Not really sure what he does, but without him, we don't have a complete team. Antawn is the strong force. Hard to believe I'm calling him Strong, but he scores points, and no one else really does that. We're hoping Dion Waiters becomes the Strong Force, and represents it in a much better manner. Tristan and Andy are electricity and magnetism. They provide excitement and energy, the rebounding and defense. Important forces, they win championships, and really are flip sides of the same coin. They can be considered two faces of one and the same force. Gravity will hopefully be provided by Tyler Zeller. A true center is the force in the middle, and the ball really revolves around and is pulled toward the center, but we haven't had this in years, since the Z force, and we've forgotten what it looks like.

But the Higgs Boson, Kyrie Irving, he stands alone in our universe. Not a force, but an elementary particle. And the final piece to the puzzle of our Standard Model of a complete team. He provides the substance to the Cavs universe. Without him, there is no mass, and without mass, there is no gravity. Without mass, there is no impact, substance, or solidity to our team. Just a bunch of empty forces interacting, but with no meaning or impact. We've known for a long time that such a player existed. We plotted and schemed, and calculated exactly what that player should look like. We knew what he would do, what he would measure, but we searched and we searched, and never had definitive proof. We found some pretenders and tried to make them work. Mo kind of looked like he should fit the part, but once plugged in, it became clear that he really didn't. Lebron? Wrong particle, and he decayed in a way that few could have predicted at the time. We had to start over with a new and better model. But a particle like Kyrie could only come into existence with a very high energy draft pick, and after a lot of careful planning, experimentation, and calculation. When we drafted him, we thought we might have had the real thing, but we weren't too sure. He looked like he fit the calculations properly, but he wasn't proven. Only now, after seeing for sure what he could do on the court for a full year, and against real NBA players, can we say with scientific certainty that he is it.

Is he proven absolutely? Well, we can't really say that with 100% certainty. He'd have to win a few championships or at least we'd have to have an excellent and winning team for years - it depends on who you are and what you expect, in order to 'have proof'. But most reasonable people would say he's it, that we have sufficient evidence now to say so. Even though 100% absolute proof is not attainable, there's no such thing, really. But with regard to the Higgs Boson, there is less than a 1 in 2 million chance that it's not the correct particle, and in the scientific community, that is enough to say that it's 'proof'.

So there you go, my lame analogy for Kyrie Irving, aka the Higgs Boson, aka the God Particle, of the Cleveland Cavaliers.

 

[Soda]

Whats crazy is they built this building in switzelrand just 2 fucking years ago. Its like finding the holy grail of science. They engineered everything correctly. Incredible.

Yes. This. This is why we, as a species, need to devote so much more than we do presently towards theoretical physics. The fact that ITER isn't up and running, that there is no massive push towards fusion power, or that we don't have a national movement towards landing a man on Mars, we don't have massive grants towards the discovery of more tensile materials. The science community is still there, they haven't gone anywhere. It's just that since the end of the Cold War, the money has dried up.

Hopefully this discovery will validate spending large sums on meaningful science (and not just medicine).

I don't want to be the guy who brings this up, but I am a bit confused (or amazed).

Dan Brown published Angels & Demons in 2000. In that book, he alludes to a structure that is underground, which maintains "anti-matter". I know he does a ton of research on his subject matter prior to writing a book, but that is a pretty impressive bit of knowledge to have if the place was built only 2 years ago. It must've been in the works since the late 90's.

On another note, I tried to bring this up with my friends and it just didn't work. This discovery is a nobel prize winner if CERN can confirm that the new bosin is, in fact, the Higgs.

 

[gourimoko]

Gour, I hate to correct you here but

I love discussion!

the scientists at CERN have still not determined whether it is in fact the Higgs Boson. They have discovered a new boson, that has the mass and decay properties of the Higgs, but until they measure its spin they cannot be sure if it is the Higgs predicted by the Standard Model. If they can confirm that the spin of the new boson is zero, they will essentially confirm the Standard Model. If the spin is measured to be 1 or 2, this will open the door for the possibilities for dark matter to sneak its way into the Standard.

You are quite right, we can't be sure just yet. But we are fairly certain. If it has a spin of anything but 0 it isn't the Higgs Boson, or that the Higgs Boson doesn't exist. From all the data we have at present, that just seems unlikely.

Consider that the probability of spin 1 was determined to be insignificant by the photon decay on diphoton channel, and spin 2 was further deemed (extremely) unlikely by the Tevatron and Fermilab experiments preceding CERN's discovery. While it is possible, it would, again, be extremely unlikely.

 

[gourimoko]

I don't want to be the guy who brings this up, but I am a bit confused (or amazed).

Dan Brown published Angels & Demons in 2000. In that book, he alludes to a structure that is underground, which maintains "anti-matter". I know he does a ton of research on his subject matter prior to writing a book, but that is a pretty impressive bit of knowledge to have if the place was built only 2 years ago. It must've been in the works since the late 90's.

On another note, I tried to bring this up with my friends and it just didn't work. This discovery is a nobel prize winner if CERN can confirm that the new bosin is, in fact, the Higgs.

There are no large-scale antimatter reserves on the Earth. The only known process to create anti-hydrogen or anti-helium atoms requires a tremendous amount of energy and storage is exceedingly problematic. It is, as of now, a far too inefficient conversion to be in anyway effective.

To that end, if someone could develop a 'magic pot' that could store sufficient antimatter over time this person would have to ask themselves "wtf do I do if this thing breaks?"

 

[gourimoko]

So here's my understanding of it, in terms we can understand. Real scientists, I've taken some liberties with poetic license, but I think this works. Feel free to correct or elaborate as necessary.

I didn't care for our draft....

But a couple of things.. Gravity effects everything in the universe, whether it has mass or not. Fire a laser over the Earth and it will bend. Fire it near a black hole, and it will be far more pronounced.

But yeah, the Higgs is pretty fucking important.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

There are no large-scale antimatter reserves on the Earth. The only known process to create anti-hydrogen or anti-helium atoms requires a tremendous amount of energy and storage is exceedingly problematic. It is, as of now, a far too inefficient conversion to be in anyway effective.

To that end, if someone could develop a 'magic pot' that could store sufficient antimatter over time this person would have to ask themselves "wtf do I do if this thing breaks?"

I know a couple people that could develop some magic pot to help you conceptualize an antimatter storage facility.

 

[Soda]

There are no large-scale antimatter reserves on the Earth. The only known process to create anti-hydrogen or anti-helium atoms requires a tremendous amount of energy and storage is exceedingly problematic. It is, as of now, a far too inefficient conversion to be in anyway effective.

To that end, if someone could develop a 'magic pot' that could store sufficient antimatter over time this person would have to ask themselves "wtf do I do if this thing breaks?"

That isn't what I meant by it, though. I'm aware of the "anti-matter" fiction piece of the book. I was referring to the underground CERN structure that is underground in Switzerland.