Shooting at Planned Parenthood in Colorado

[gourimoko]

If you really believe abortion is murder (and murder of the.worst kind infanticide) shouldnt this guy be a hero?

Agreed. I do have a hard time understanding the counterargument to this point.

This guy should be a hero if he's killing put an end to the "murder of countless innocent babies."

 

[The Oi]

If you really believe abortion is murder (and murder of the.worst kind infanticide) shouldnt this guy be a hero?

If you kill a doctor who is an abortion provider its like your killing Ted Bundy and saving countless future babies

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

It depends on whether you believe this guy's intentions were what he claimed them to me. I personally think he was a fucking lunatic that was looking for something to feel strongly enough about to justify his desire to kill people.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Agreed. I do have a hard time understanding the counterargument to this point.

This guy should be a hero if he's killing put an end to the "murder of countless innocent babies."

Why would that make him a hero? He killed people that weren't performing abortions, didn't he? That makes him a murderer.

If he was never wronged personally by this doctor, then he is once again, just a murderer.

If his own child was aborted by that doctor, even someone who doesn't believe in government courts thinks there is a process you go through before you kill him. No, I will not prognosticate on what that process might look like in a free market, but no people with any kind of moral compass would just go and kill a guy that wasn't an immediate threat in that situation.

So, I see no scenario in which the guy was a hero.

 

[Cavatt]

If you really believe abortion is murder (and murder of the.worst kind infanticide) shouldnt this guy be a hero?

If you kill a doctor who is an abortion provider its like your killing Ted Bundy and saving countless future babies

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

Killing people to get something done politically is the def of terrorism.

He didn't stop abortions through this act.

 

[gourimoko]

Why would that make him a hero? He killed people that weren't performing abortions, didn't he? That makes him a murderer.

If he was never wronged personally by this doctor, then he is once again, just a murderer.

If his own child was aborted by that doctor, even someone who doesn't believe in government courts thinks there is a process you go through before you kill him. No, I will not prognosticate on what that process might look like in a free market, but no people with any kind of moral compass would just go and kill a guy that wasn't an immediate threat in that situation.

So, I see no scenario in which the guy was a hero.

Hmm..

Let me rephrase my meaning because I think we might be talking about two different things, and in doing so let me say that I'm not specifically talking about this particular shooter.

Couple of ethical questions:

1) If you are armed, and see a very large man who looks dangerous (to you) raping an infant child (yes people do get charged with doing this), can you ethically kill him? Is this murder, or are you a hero for stopping this heinous act?

2) If you are armed, and you see a woman drowning her newborn baby in a river, can you ethically kill them to save the child? Again, is this murder, or are you a hero for stopping this heinous act?

Given these two scenarios, are you ethically allowed to kill without committing murder? And beyond that, are you ethically compelled to act as a good Samaritan?

3) If you are armed and capable, and you know your neighbor practices late-term abortions for a living, and you know that he is going to go and kill several "babies" this coming Tuesday, are you not compelled to act? This man is the only abortion doctor around for miles and is doing these abortions at massive discounts. By killing him, you are assured to save multiple lives. Is it ethical to kill him?

4) You are in the Navy/Air Force. You are ordered to drop munitions for the purposes of "shock and awe" on Baghdad. You know many civilians will die because of your actions. Are you a murderer? If not, why not?

I guess these questions are intended such that I can get to where you are from where I think @Pioneer10 and myself are at. Because I can completely understand what he's saying.

In essence, if you could prevent the death of a child by killing the person who was going to do kill this child, would this be ethical? Because in my view, the answer to this question is yes, it would be - not only ethical, but I would feel compelled to act if I could.

Therefore, if the aforementioned is true, and if there is no difference between a newborn baby and a "baby" in the womb, then surely the argument that killing someone, if it could actually prevent an abortion, follows does it not?

 

[OptimusPrime]

Hmm..

Let me rephrase my meaning because I think we might be talking about two different things, and in doing so let me say that I'm not specifically talking about this particular shooter.

Couple of ethical questions:

1) If you are armed, and see a very large man who looks dangerous (to you) raping an infant child (yes people do get charged with doing this), can you ethically kill him? Is this murder, or are you a hero for stopping this heinous act?

2) If you are armed, and you see a woman drowning her newborn baby in a river, can you ethically kill them to save the child? Again, is this murder, or are you a hero for stopping this heinous act?

Given these two scenarios, are you ethically allowed to kill without committing murder? And beyond that, are you ethically compelled to act as a good Samaritan?

3) If you are armed and capable, and you know your neighbor practices late-term abortions for a living, and you know that he is going to go and kill several "babies" this coming Tuesday, are you not compelled to act? This man is the only abortion doctor around for miles and is doing these abortions at massive discounts. By killing him, you are assured to save multiple lives. Is it ethical to kill him?

4) You are in the Navy/Air Force. You are ordered to drop munitions for the purposes of "shock and awe" on Baghdad. You know many civilians will die because of your actions. Are you a murderer? If not, why not?

I guess these questions are intended such that I can get to where you are from where I think @Pioneer10 and myself are at. Because I can completely understand what he's saying.

In essence, if you could prevent an abortion by killing the person who was going to do it, would this be ethical?

1. Yes, I would say you can ethically kill him if that's what it takes to subdue him, although that action may not be without consequence depending on the society.

2. Yes, I would say you can ethically kill her if that's what it takes to subdue her, although that action may not be without consequence depending on the society.

For those, the reasoning is the same. It is an ongoing action you are stopping. And killing them should be the last resort, if all other attempts to stop them either failed or put yourself in danger.

You are not ethically compelled to act. Not everyone is capable of helping in that situation, and some people wouldn't want to. If you see that going on and can live with yourself after not interfering, then that is up to you.

3. No. You don't know what will happen by Tuesday. The guy might drop dead before then. Or be run out of town. Now if you walk in mid-abortion? Well, then it gets complicated. If you believe abortion is murder, you would be morally justified to try to defend the baby. If the abortion is legal, like in this country, and possibly/probably in societies with no government, then if you decide to intervene you would expect to face the consequences. Again, morally the object would be try to stop them without lethal force first, not going in guns blazing. Practically, it would be pretty idiotic to do it, even if you think it is the right thing to do, because the mother will just go somewhere else and kill the kid anyway, and you get to be a martyr for nothing.

I personally believe abortion is murder. But I wouldn't go and intervene in an abortion for this reason, even though I would intervene in the first two scenarios you listed. If it is legal, I wouldn't be saving anyone anyway because the next time someone probably won't stop the abortion. Not to mention I probably wouldn't be hanging out over there and happen upon an abortion. I don't try to be a superhero and go out looking for trouble. Government or not, there are supposed to be people that provide that service already. I don't know if it makes me a hypocrite or not. No one is perfect. The world isn't perfect.

4. It depends. Are you gung ho about killing some people with your bombs? Then, yes you are a murderer. Are you just following orders so you don't get punished? Then you are a murderer, but there are others above you that bear some of that responsibility.

 

[Pioneer10]

Killing people to get something done politically is the def of terrorism.

He didn't stop abortions through this act.

Sure I get that: I'm not defending his actions in anyway.

I'm just curious about how to ethically manage these thoughts:
-abortion is the equivalent of killing murder: infanticide.
-if this is case then you literally have a genocide in the US as the number of abortions are in the millions per decade
-again if you really believe that abortion is murder: how can one not then do everything in their power to stop abortion providers including physical violence. One is certainly justified under western and eastern thought that killing to prevent murder is justifiable homicide

Gourimoko has beat me to the punch here but his post is exactly where I'm stuck. If abortion is in fact murder you are letting abortion doctors commit horrific mass murder on an epic scale.

 

[OptimusPrime]

If abortion is in fact murder you are letting abortion doctors commit horrific mass murder on an epic scale.

It is a dilemna, but one thing I do know is that killing abortion doctors when they are not in the middle of killing a baby is not the answer. If you equate abortion with murder, and there is a murderer walking the streets, you wouldn't go up and kill him (or shouldn't at least). You would probably call the police, have them take him away, face trial, and serve his sentence.

The issue is if you are going to barge in on an abortion procedure. I can see how it could be justified to stop it, but it isn't going to do you any good if abortions are legal.

The only reasonable solution is to convince society to make abortion illegal. Even if you do that, that still won't eliminate abortions, but it will reduce them.

 

[gourimoko]

1. Yes, I would say you can ethically kill him if that's what it takes to subdue him, although that action may not be without consequence depending on the society.

2. Yes, I would say you can ethically kill her if that's what it takes to subdue her, although that action may not be without consequence depending on the society.

For those, the reasoning is the same. It is an ongoing action you are stopping. And killing them should be the last resort, if all other attempts to stop them either failed or put yourself in danger.

You are not ethically compelled to act. Not everyone is capable of helping in that situation, and some people wouldn't want to. If you see that going on and can live with yourself after not interfering, then that is up to you.

Okay, I understand you're point.

3. No. You don't know what will happen by Tuesday. The guy might drop dead before then. Or be run out of town. Now if you walk in mid-abortion? Well, then it gets complicated. If you believe abortion is murder, you would be morally justified to try to defend the baby. If the abortion is legal, like in this country, and possibly/probably in societies with no government, then if you decide to intervene you would expect to face the consequences. Again, morally the object would be try to stop them without lethal force first, not going in guns blazing. Practically, it would be pretty idiotic to do it, even if you think it is the right thing to do, because the mother will just go somewhere else and kill the kid anyway, and you get to be a martyr for nothing.

I think this answer seems to wiggle out of the ethical dilemma. The question isn't about practicality and pragmatism, but instead, I am asking is it ethical to kill this person? You've said "if you walk in mid-abortion?"

Okay, so what if you walk-in mid-abortion? Can you then pull the trigger to save the child?

I personally believe abortion is murder. But I wouldn't go and intervene in an abortion for this reason, even though I would intervene in the first two scenarios you listed. If it is legal, I wouldn't be saving anyone anyway because the next time someone probably won't stop the abortion. Not to mention I probably wouldn't be hanging out over there and happen upon an abortion. I don't try to be a superhero and go out looking for trouble. Government or not, there are supposed to be people that provide that service already. I don't know if it makes me a hypocrite or not. No one is perfect. The world isn't perfect.

Understand that I'm not arguing the world is perfect; I'm trying to understand the ethics of someone who can simultaneously say "this is murder" and then also say to prevent murder is somehow unethical? This seems contradictory to me.

4. It depends. Are you gung ho about killing some people with your bombs? Then, yes you are a murderer. Are you just following orders so you don't get punished? Then you are a murderer, but there are others above you that bear some of that responsibility.

This seems like soldiers, in general, are murderers... I cannot find myself agreeing with this logic. Hmm...

Can you try to explain the aforementioned a bit more first, regarding the walking-in on someone performing an abortion? Under these obviously contrived circumstances, is one ethically allowed to kill to save the life of the baby?

 

[gourimoko]

It is a dilemna

It's more than just a dilemma, it's contradictory. It's not logical, and ethics should be logically derived.

I don't think the dilemma can stand without actively engaging in double-think, to be quite honest.

 

[Pioneer10]

It is a dilemna, but one thing I do know is that killing abortion doctors when they are not in the middle of killing a baby is not the answer. If you equate abortion with murder, and there is a murderer walk in the streets, you wouldn't go up and kill him (or shouldn't at least). You would probably call the police, have them take him away, face trial, and serve his sentence.

The issue is if you are going to barge in on an abortion procedure. I can see how it could be justified to stop it, but it isn't going to do you any good if abortions are legal.

The only reasonable solution is to convince society to make abortion illegal. Even if you do that, that still won't eliminate abortions, but it will reduce them.

If there was a building where baby parts were being harvested from infants wouldn't you be cheering if some brave soul went in there and prevented that happening no matter if the harvesters get harmed?

There are in fact only a limited number of people.who do this professionally. Go after the bomb makers as the Israelis say not the suicide bombers

 

[OptimusPrime]

Can you try to explain the aforementioned a bit more first, regarding the walking-in on someone performing an abortion? Under these obviously contrived circumstances, is one ethically allowed to kill to save the life of the baby?

Ok, to me, it would not be unethical to kill to save the baby if killing was the last resort. I wouldn't do it. It wouldn't be practical or smart. But it can be ethically justified.