Star Wars: The Force Awakens teaser #2

[gourimoko]

I'm talking about literally re-doing the movies though, meaning new actors, re-defining what the story around the fall of anakin was, etc.

I truly think that happens, but not for awhile.

Yeah, I'd agree, they'd wait until Lucas died. Even then, I don't see it happening for a long time.. There's other, better, ideas out there.

I know, and I'm glad they had the balls to stand up to him because too many Yes Men is what caused the prequels to fail on so many levels.

I'll always appreciate the guy for coming up with this universe (and Indiana Jones), but he lost his way as a story teller.

I think he's a great story teller, I just think he's a horrible director. I also think you're right in that he's surrounded himself with Yes Men, so no one was there to offer a critical opinion while he was writing the first Ep. VII story.

So he submits this to Disney, they laugh it off and tell him to go back to the drawing board, and he severs ties upset over the process.

Anyone else would've just said "okay, they paid be $4 billion dollars, I can rewrite the fucking script." Instead, he said, I'm going home and taking my toys with me.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I think he's a great story teller, I just think he's a horrible director. I also think you're right in that he's surrounded himself with Yes Men, so no one was there to offer a critical opinion while he was writing the first Ep. VII story.

If the prequels are any indication, he's also an absolutely godawful writer. Most of the dialogue was just cringe-worthy.

I think calling him a great storyteller is a bit of a stretch too when he hasn't told a good story in like thirty years. The general story of the prequels was totally nonsensical and awful.

 

[spydy13]

Yeah, I'd agree, they'd wait until Lucas died. Even then, I don't see it happening for a long time.. There's other, better, ideas out there.

Yeah, I agree. 1) because the new stuff sounds more interesting and 2) because I don't know if there is really three movies worth of story to tell in the prequel storyline. But the point remains, director's don't take kindly to their movies being remade.

I think he's a great story teller, I just think he's a horrible director. I also think you're right in that he's surrounded himself with Yes Men, so no one was there to offer a critical opinion while he was writing the first Ep. VII story.

So he submits this to Disney, they laugh it off and tell him to go back to the drawing board, and he severs ties upset over the process.

Anyone else would've just said "okay, they paid be $4 billion dollars, I can rewrite the fucking script." Instead, he said, I'm going home and taking my toys with me.

I think it was just a case of him finally realizing that his take on Star Wars was no longer what people wanted, which I'm guessing he got a pretty strong whiff of during the prequels. Yes, kids love the Clone Wars, but their parents want good shit too.

I'm just thankful he was willing to sell off the rights.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Yeah, I agree. 1) because the new stuff sounds more interesting and 2) because I don't know if there is really three movies worth of story to tell in the prequel storyline. But the point remains, director's don't take kindly to their movies being remade.

Well, if they remake the prequels, I would hope they'd just re-write them entirely, because the story that's there is both nonsensical and terrible. Basically they'd just need to scrap everything aside from the inevitable fall of Anakin story. The prequels handled his fall terribly, but there could certainly be an interesting story there if told by a competent writer and director. You'd think that it would ideally mirror Luke's story, only Anakin succumbs to the dark side in the end instead of standing firm against it. I think that's what Lucas was going for, but he just bungled it so completely that the whole thing just makes no sense.

 

[gourimoko]

Well, if they remake the prequels, I would hope they'd just re-write them entirely, because the story that's there is both nonsensical and terrible. Basically they'd just need to scrap everything aside from the inevitable fall of Anakin story. The prequels handled his fall terribly, but there could certainly be an interesting story there if told by a competent writer and director. You'd think that it would ideally mirror Luke's story, only Anakin succumbs to the dark side in the end instead of standing firm against it. I think that's what Lucas was going for, but he just bungled it so completely that the whole thing just makes no sense.

It's funny..

I thought the storyline of the prequels was overall pretty good. It just got bogged down in unnecessarily political banter about trade policies and blockades.

But Anakin being too old to train, too willful, too prideful, all made sense. It was the direction that was fucked. Anakin's fall was always going to happen, Palpatine or not. I actually prefer that.

Revenge just seemed to have not figured out how to make that transition work. The 15 minute turn from Jedi to Sith was lolbad awful. And I'm scarred for life from seeing Vader scream "Nooooooooooo..." while doing his best Frankenstein monster impersonation.

The story was good, the battle at the volcanic planet was expected.. Everything was solid storywise. It was the plot and direction that just fucking flopped, horribly.

 

[gourimoko]

If the prequels are any indication, he's also an absolutely godawful writer. Most of the dialogue was just cringe-worthy.

I think calling him a great storyteller is a bit of a stretch too when he hasn't told a good story in like thirty years. The general story of the prequels was totally nonsensical and awful.

The stories he's told are generally beloved by millions of people, I don't think it's much of a stretch.

And dialogue is screenwriting, which really isn't about storytelling. These are typically two completely different people/roles within production.

For example, Lucas was hired to write Ep. 7's story; but not it's script. No one had any illusions that he could effectively write dialogue.

 

[Jack Brickman]

It's funny..

I thought the storyline of the prequels was overall pretty good. It just got bogged down in unnecessarily political banter about trade policies and blockades.

But Anakin being too old to train, too willful, too prideful, all made sense. It was the direction that was fucked. Anakin's fall was always going to happen, Palpatine or not. I actually prefer that.

Revenge just seemed to have not figured out how to make that transition work. The 15 minute turn from Jedi to Sith was lolbad awful. And I'm scarred for life from seeing Vader scream "Nooooooooooo..." while doing his best Frankenstein monster impersonation.

The story was good, the battle at the volcanic planet was expected.. Everything was solid storywise. It was the plot and direction that just fucking flopped, horribly.

Anakin's fall in and of itself made sense seeing as we knew it was going to happen because we knew it was Darth Vader. The problem is that the entire execution of that story was absolutely awful, including everything surrounding it. And while the volcanic planet was expected, I thought the fight itself was shitty and emotionless, mostly because the story building up to it never actually established Anakin and Obi-Wan as friends. Obi-Wan was always dickish and dismissive of Anakin throughout the trilogy. We're told that they are friends, but we never see it on the screen. Further, that fight was just a CGI orgy. The Luke/Vader fight from Return was a billion times better and more emotional despite limited choreography and no special effects outside of the lightsabers.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the story being good. I thought the prequels were a disaster overall. There's almost nothing redeeming in them.

 

[bigfoot5415]

Further, that fight was just a CGI orgy. The Luke/Vader fight from Return was a billion times better and more emotional despite limited choreography and no special effects outside of the lightsabers.

100% Agree!

The fight in Episode one was still my favorite. It felt like a healthy mix of CGI & choreography. Great emotional battle, and epic music.

Darth Maul...we hardly knew ye

 

[col63onel]

My favorite podcast, The Weekly Planet, released a couple of short vids about the trailer. Speculation, but certainly nothing concrete enough to be called a spoiler.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F3sdtFMMiw

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KSOZGznfHA

 

[col63onel]

The Luke/Vader fight from Return was a billion times better and more emotional despite limited choreography and no special effects outside of the lightsabers.

The psychology of the whole scene is just incredible.

The emperor wants Luke to kill Vader.

Vader wants Luke to kill the emperor.

Luke is ready to die because he wants the Death Star blown up.

The villains want the hero to live more than the hero wants to survive.

 

[Jack Brickman]

100% Agree!

The fight in Episode one was still my favorite. It felt like a healthy mix of CGI & choreography. Great emotional battle, and epic music.

Darth Maul...we hardly knew ye

I didn't really care for that one either, but it was probably the best of the prequels. It, too, was just too choreographed, though. Like, you watch it and you just feel all those hours they spent going through every move. The problem is that real fights don't work like that. That's what makes the fights in the original trilogy so much better (aside from the one between old Obi-Wan and Darth...the fight itself sucked, although the emotional toll was there). They feel real and there is emotion behind them. When Luke goes ape shit and just wails on Vader, it's an amazing moment, one that the prequels lacked entirely. Contrast that to when Liam Neeson (I don't know how to spell his character's name and don't care) dies in Episode One. Obi-Wan yells and looks to be getting emotional, but then as soon as he starts fighting again it's just the over-choreographed bullshit that ruined the rest of that fight.

I have the same complaint with the Matrix sequels. The original fights were certainly choreographed, much more so than the original Star Wars movies, but they just felt more real and visceral than anything in the sequels. In the sequels, it felt like they were making things overly complicated just because they could, whereas in the original all the fights served a purpose and were more simplistic and satisfying in design.

The best movie fights, to me, are the ones that feel organic and real. The ones where you don't see the choreographing at work unless you look really closely. The ones where guys get tired and worn down throughout the fight.

Just as an example, take this fight scene from the first season of Game of Thrones. The season had a relatively low budget (especially compared to more recent seasons), but the fight is still better than anything from the prequels. It's simple, realistic, effective, and has sufficient stakes (Tyrion, a fan favorite character, will die if his champion loses the fight).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN30YMzja6Y


The show has done better duels since then as the budget has expanded, but I went with this one because it's a perfect example of how you don't need crazy effects or dozens of hours of training to have a good fight scene.

 

[TyGuy]

I didn't really care for that one either, but it was probably the best of the prequels. It, too, was just too choreographed, though. Like, you watch it and you just feel all those hours they spent going through every move. The problem is that real fights don't work like that. That's what makes the fights in the original trilogy so much better (aside from the one between old Obi-Wan and Darth...the fight itself sucked, although the emotional toll was there). They feel real and there is emotion behind them. When Luke goes ape shit and just wails on Vader, it's an amazing moment, one that the prequels lacked entirely. Contrast that to when Liam Neeson (I don't know how to spell his character's name and don't care) dies in Episode One. Obi-Wan yells and looks to be getting emotional, but then as soon as he starts fighting again it's just the over-choreographed bullshit that ruined the rest of that fight.


The best movie fights, to me, are the ones that feel organic and real. The ones where you don't see the choreographing at work unless you look really closely. The ones where guys get tired and worn down throughout the fight.

That describes this scene perfectly.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B66feInucFY
This is probably the best fighting scene in television history and is up there with any film you can think of.

 

[Chris]

Game of Thrones is full of great sword duels. The Hound vs Beric and Captain Phasma I mean Brienne vs The Hound are great. Oddly enough Tyrion's second trial by combat had that "too choreographed" feel to it, IMO, that you say describes most of the Star Wars prequel fights.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Game of Thrones is full of great sword duels. The Hound vs Beric and Captain Phasma I mean Brienne vs The Hound are great. Oddly enough Tyrion's second trial by combat had that "too choreographed" feel to it, IMO, that you say describes most of the Star Wars prequel fights.

Yeah, although it was still nowhere near as bad as any prequel fight. I think the issue with Tyrion's second trial is that it's basically unrealistic to have a guy as big as the guy playing the Mountain who can still move at the speed that fight demanded of him (the books, though, don't have to be realistic like that...the Mountain is like eight feet tall in the novels). He was kind of just slow and plodding in that fight, and so it doesn't feel as natural as the other duels.

Another shitty fight was that one in the current season with all the Sand Snakes. I'm assuming it was because those women were just hopeless at fight choreography, because both Jaime and Bronn have been in some good fight scenes.

 

[Pioneer10]

The psychology of the whole scene is just incredible.

The emperor wants Luke to kill Vader.

Vader wants Luke to kill the emperor.

Luke is ready to die because he wants the Death Star blown up.

The villains want the hero to live more than the hero wants to survive.

The Ewoks unfortunately taint what was otherwise a very strong movie (speeder bikes, "It's a trap", Vader turning on the Dark Side). Imaging the difficulty in trying to come up with a film that just happened to complete a trilogy of not only a cultural benchmark that is A New Hope but a sequel that is universally acknowledged as one of the best ever.