The Bench

[petes999]

Grant's made it pretty clear he would like one more lottery pick and with an even competent bench I have to think the Cavs would have a decent shot at reaching the playoffs. But I don't think anybody could have predicted C.J. miles would turn into Sasha Pavlovic upon arriving in Cleveland.

I don't mind what is going on. We have won the first quarter with our starters most of the times. Our bench is what tanks us which helps us until we are ready for playoffs in a year or two. Next year with a SF and PG/C with two of our picks, our bench gets Gee plus later daft pick. That with Zeller and Gibson or another FA and it becomes competitive/ 100% improved. That and 2 2014 picks if sac gets better and watch out. Also, Waiters should be playing more next year as he is probably getting winded and thus more time to Gibson. Lets get real, mst of our bench, Lauer and Samuels are third string at best.

 

[CavsFanJapan]

Grant is looking at long term and he has always looked at future "flexibility" in every trade/aquisition he has made. He has the new CBA in mind and when owners have to start getting rid of people, our bench will fill up. I can take this crap for now knowing Grant is setting things up when everyone else is shitting bricks. Looking at our contracts (including CJ MIles), he has maintained salary cap, flexibility and stack piled the shit out of draft picks with the CBA really taking effect soon. I don't know if we have 6 guys total from this years roster when it hits. Again, I can handle this crap as long as our young players develop and get better.

 

[Jon]

We're going to have to pay our rookies at some point, so there are only so many crappy contracts we can take on before the new CBA has us shitting bricks too.

Grant is going to have to pull the trigger on all that flexibility before it's too late - and hopefully there will be killer deals to pounce on that other teams don't snag first because CG is too busy dotting his I's and crossing his T's.

But yeah, it's not hard to improve our bench depth. All we'd have to do is sign some actual NBA players.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Does our bench really think of themselves as NBA players? Have they made the connection yet, or are they like the sixth graders after a CYO track meet, parading around their yellow sixth place ribbon at the McDonald's?

 

[rabman_gold]

I have some thoughts to why and how it'll look based on past transactions. I'm going to start with the first year without LeBron:

Year	Tier	Center	Power Forward	Small Forward	Shooting Guard	Point Guard
2010-11	Starters	Andy/J.J.	Antawn Jamison	Alonzo Gee	Anthony Parker	Baron/Ramon
2010-11	Bench	Ryan Hollins	Samardo Samuels	Christian Eyenga	Manny Harris	Daniel Gibson

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Basically anyone half-underlined at least was half average. The underlined ones were terrible. Also, despite our point guards being the most productive, none of them were in our future. So we traded Mo for Baron and the future pick known as Kyrie (luck). We also attempted to get some development with Luke Harangody and Semih Erden. Most of it was moot but at least we got our first building pieces in the 2011 draft:

Year	Tier	Center	Power Forward	Small Forward	Shooting Guard	Point Guard
2011-12	Starters	Andy/T.T.	Antawn Jamison	Alonzo Gee	Anthony Parker	*Kyrie Irving
2011-12	Bench	Hollins/Erden	Samardo Samuels	Omri Casspi	Daniel Gibson	Donald Sloan

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In year one of the rebuild, 1/2 of our team was terrible (4 guys + 1/2 + 1/2). In year two, we still had the same amount, but our point guard spot was upgraded tremendously. Now this last one is somewhat incomplete, but whatever it takes, here's what we have now:

Year	Tier	Center	Power Forward	Small Forward	Shooting Guard	Point Guard
2012-13	Starters	Anderson Varejao	Tristan Thompson	Alonzo Gee	Dion Waiters	*Kyrie Irving
2012-13	Bench	Tyler Zeller	Samardo Samuels	Casspi/Miles	Daniel Gibson	Donald Sloan

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And despite the bench being horrible, we have absolutely no half-links or weak-links in our starting lineup for the first time. We only have 3 bad ones in the bench that are forced to play. So going from 5 to 3 guys made a difference in depth. 7 deep. We probably will have at least 2 more key guys waiting either by the trade deadline or the draft. In 2 years, I think we will be 10 deep and have 2 more guys to play in emergency. This is still a rebuilding year. We all expected it. Now lets hope we balance expectations from both draft slots and winning so players will continue to thrive in this environment.

 

[Rainman]

Part One: Thoughts on the Bench / Rotation

<SMALL>November 12th, 2012 by Kevin Hetrick</SMALL><IFRAME height=61 src="http://api.tweetmeme.com/button.js?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cavstheblog.com%2F%3Fp%3D13709&source=johnkrolik&style=normal" frameBorder=0 width=50 scrolling=no></IFRAME>
A day after Colin loosely criticized criticizing rotations; I have a full post doing that. At Cavs:the Blog, that is what we call synergy.
If someone told me the following things would be true in 2012 – 2013:

• Kyrie tallies 23 points and 6 assists per game on 57% true shooting;
• Dion averages 15 points with a 17.5 PER; and
• Andy plays 85% of Cleveland’s contests and posts a nightly 13 & 13;

My guess would have been, “Ready or not, playoffs, here we come!!” Instead, Cleveland sits with a record of 2 and 5, and the sixth-worst point differential in the league.
You know the problem: bench play. Aside from Daniel Gibson, the weighted-per-minute-PER for the non-top-six players is 5.8. Their worth according to basketball-reference…negative 0.7 win shares. That must be league worst.
Let’s assume for a minute that a season where Kyrie and Dion thrive, that is sabotaged by the bench, and results in another top-eight pick is a bad thing. What can Cleveland do with the current roster to avoid the lapses of quality basketball caused when the starters sit?
Andy is furious about losing. He is willing to play 12 minutes a game without Kyrie to make it stop.

1. Already enacted is step one; no more Luke Walton. Mr. Walton, you clearly have a good head for the game. May your coaching career bring many successes.
2. This is the most important one; make sure that Kyrie or Andy is on the court at all times. Did you realize that in Andy’s six games, he has played only seventeen minutes without Kyrie? There are two players on the team where I confidently think the opponent can not forge any 12 – 0 runs, and their minutes need dispersed a bit more. If both continue to play 35 minutes per night; start them both, sit Andy with six minutes to go in the first, while Kyrie plays the entire quarter. Sit Kyrie for the first half of the second quarter, with Varejao on the court all twelve minutes. Repeat in the second half.
3. CJ Miles must stop being horrible. Four straight seasons each featuring over one-thousand minutes, he posted PER’s above replacement level and offensive ratings over 100. Each of those years included decent assist rates and low turnovers. He is not in the same universe as those numbers through the early portion of this season. Time for him to figure things out and return to prior levels.
4. Tyler Zeller needs back on the court. In the two games prior to injury, he totaled 17 points and 14 rebounds. Get well soon, TZ.
5. Approaching 100 games into Samardo Samuels’ career, he remains a sub-replacement-level player. I would like to see Jon Leuer continue seeing playing time. Slightly younger than Samuels, Leuer posted solid NBA numbers last year. Cleveland knows what exists with the old guy; give the new blood an opportunity.
6. Sorry to repeatedly be so hard on you, Donald Sloan, but you must go. Now 744 minutes into your career, an 8.7 PER does not portend NBA-caliber performance. When Kyrie sits; Cleveland needs to suit-up a crew featuring Dion AND Andy, or something like: Gibson, Miles, Gee, Leuer, Varejao.

I continue to think that, when healthy, the five starters, plus Boobie, Miles, Leuer, and Zeller can resemble a decent nine-man rotation. Sure, this is contingent on CJ Miles not resembling a steaming pile of garbage. Let me know your ideas, or if your preference is a season of Kyrie = All – Star, Dion = first-team-rookie, Cavs = 25 wins and high draft pick thanks to crappy bench play…let me know that, too.

 

[Jon]

Basically anyone half-underlined at least was half average.

Of course you're tossing the guys drafted in the past two seasons a mulligan.

 

[rabman_gold]

Of course you're tossing the guys drafted in the past two seasons a mulligan.

If you assume I'm giving them a free pass since we haven't seen much action from them, that's because in the time they have appeared, they haven't looked even close to what the D-League stars look like.

Are you seriously telling me I'm giving one them, like Irving, a pass by playing favorites, "Mr. Rich Man's Boobie Gibson"?

Oh wait, you probably meant Thompson, who's not averaging massive stats despite not having plays run for him... But he's not making the team worse.

No no... You must've meant Dion, the guy Scott sat despite keeping the team in some games in a short start of the season and isn't looking absolutely dreadful.

Or was it Zeller, who was performing his duties just fine until he had a face fracture...

Seriously Jon, even if something changes, 3/4 of those rookies are starting... How is that a "mulligan", old sport?

 

[CavsFanJapan]

Jon,
We are talking bench players, not starters. The rookies will get paid. We have tremendous D-league talent on our bench. He will sign actual NBA players but won't sacrifice our starting rookies.

 

[Jon]

Seriously Jon, even if something changes, 3/4 of those rookies are starting... How is that a "mulligan", old sport?

Starting for who? Starting for the Cavs - sure - but that's because our goal is to rebuild from the draft.

But maybe I misunderstood what you meant by average or 1/2 average. If you just meant not D league scraps ... sure, carry on. If you meant average for a bench player, you're probably short selling Jamison/Parker and yes, giving some of the younger players too much credit.

 

[glockcoma]

Bring back Corperryale Ladorable Harris.... at least he can score points off the bench.

 

[Rich]

Wanna say that my prediction early in the season that this team could compete for a playoff spot was dead wrong. Little did I know that this bench would be THIS atrocious. Bad, yes. Currently on pace to be one of the worst ever? Nope. Didn't see that one coming.

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

This bench has gotten me thinking of some of the worst bench players in Cavs history. The list would go fast and easy if just compiled on talent, or lack thereof, alone. But, alas, to make it more interesting, take into account some "X" factors, such as if the guy was acquired for draft picks.

Add your own as we go, but just keep it to one guy per post. This oughta bring some levity to this disaster and maybe add some perspective to this thing.

My guy to start the list....

Jiri Welsch-The guy Pax brought in for the playoff stretch may be the epitmoy of Pax's wonderful legacy in CLE
*Traded for in 2005 for a 2007 1st rounder
*16 games played(that seemed like 116)
*Key stats:-.064WS, 4.3 PER, 23%FG, 18% 3pt
*The pick we traded turned into Rudy Fernandez(Guards Aaron Brooks and Aaron Afflalo picked a couple guys later)(F Carl Landry a couple after that).

 

[Chardon]

An actual bench would play better D than this bench.

 

[Visitor]

Was going to post that I'm all for a Delonte West return. But I'll submit Lucious Harris. Signed as a FA after being waived by Nets and averaged 4.3 pts on 40% shooting. Sadly I could call him a current upgrade.