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The Brian Hoyer thread...

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Game threads would be an incredible case study for any psychology student.

I think it would be like trying to study the Joker. You can try all you want, but eventually you'll just end up insane too.
 
Did you skim past this?




No it wouldn't. The game can't be won or lost on the opening possession, but it can be on the last drive of the game. How is this even an argument? Lets apply what you just said to a memorable Cavs basketball game. "Saying Lebron won game 2 of the 2009 ECF with his last second 3 is just as ridiculous as saying Mo Williams won the game on the first possession with 2 free throws because the margin of victory at the end was less than 2." Just stop.
Umm, because of everything that leads up to the last drive? If the Browns converted on that fourth down from the 4 yard line and scored, does that game winning drive that knocked the clock all the way down to a minute become necessary? No.

People in general need to stop looking at games like that. Just because he completed a game winning drive doesn't necessarily constitute him being the driving force to a win or being a QB who can "win you games", whatever that even means (which is what you basically said in your post).

I don't even have a problem saying Hoyer was the driving force in this win, because he was, but not on the simplistic nature of pointing to a game winning drive.
 
Umm, because of everything that leads up to the last drive? If the Browns converted on that fourth down from the 4 yard line and scored, does that game winning drive that knocked the clock all the way down to a minute become necessary? No.

People in general need to stop looking at games like that. Just because he completed a game winning drive doesn't necessarily constitute him being the driving force to a win or being a QB who can "win you games", whatever that even means (which is what you basically said in your post).

I don't even have a problem saying Hoyer was the driving force in this win, because he was, but not on the simplistic nature of pointing to a game winning drive.

It's worth at LEAST three "it factor" points, though.

Multiply that by two for the team rallying behind him.

I think that's how you quantify clutch, but I'm not sure. Either way...look out, elite QBs of the NFL.
 
A game winning drives don't mean "you" won the game. The last drive of the game isn't the only part of the game. Saying he won a game based on that would be as ridiculous as saying a QB who scored on the opening possession won the game right there because the margin of victory at the end was less than 7.

you, my friend, have absolutely zero understanding of game theory.
 
Umm, because of everything that leads up to the last drive? If the Browns converted on that fourth down from the 4 yard line and scored, does that game winning drive that knocked the clock all the way down to a minute become necessary? No.

People in general need to stop looking at games like that. Just because he completed a game winning drive doesn't necessarily constitute him being the driving force to a win or being a QB who can "win you games", whatever that even means (which is what you basically said in your post).

I don't even have a problem saying Hoyer was the driving force in this win, because he was, but not on the simplistic nature of pointing to a game winning drive.

I understand what you are trying to say, but pointing out a couple flaws in a quarterback's performance while also not identifying his strengths makes zero sense. You can look at any quarterback and say "oh well if they completed pass x, they would not be in the position to make that game winning drive, it wouldn't have been necessary". But, that is a spiraling staircase where you are expecting a perfect performance from a quarterback, which is unreasonable. The bottom line is you want your guy to be able to perform when the game is on the line, which is what Hoyer has proven he can do. Try telling a guy in that locker room that they didn't win the game from that final drive and you'll get laughed out of the room. Just a completely foolish argument.
 
Game threads would be an incredible case study for any psychology student.

I'm usually not in them much since I work weekends now days, but come on...with the way this team is playing this year, is this really a surprise? They've given people heart attacks in all 4 games pretty much, losing two absolute heartbreakers in terrible fashion and winning 2 games in insane fashion, one of them after being down 28-3...think about that again, twenty eight to THREE vs a horrible opponent.

Nothing would surprise me in game threads for this team. Nothing.
 
John Breech of CBSSports.com hands out grades every week. After a thrilling come-from-behind win, the Browns do well.

"If the Browns wouldn't have come back to win, Brian Hoyer wouldn't have been able to sleep this week because everyone in Cleveland would have been screaming for Johnny Manziel to start. Grade: B+."

Peter King of Monday Morning Quarterback has awarded Brian Hoyer the Offensive Player of the Week.

"Competing with one of Peyton Manning's greatest days is some feat, but Hoyer deserves it. Down 28-3 in Nashville with 31 minutes to play, Hoyer led the Browns on a 26-0 run to finish the game, with scoring drives of 90, 56, 67 and 42 yards (plus a safety). He threw touchdown passes of 17 yards and six yards to Travis Benjamin in the final seven minutes to win. For the day, Hoyer was 21 of 37 for 292 yards, with three touchdowns and an interception."

ESPN.com's Pat McManamon hands out game balls every week, and Hoyer receives another one.

"It's getting repetitive, giving it to him every week, but when Hoyer throws the winning touchdown with 1:09 left, passes for 292 yards and has three touchdowns, it's hard not to keep recognizing him. The Browns dominated the second half and won despite getting no points on two golden chances. Hoyer calmly completed three passes on the winning drive -- set up by Ken Whisenhunt's nearly inexplicable decision to go for the first down from the Tennessee 42 with 3:09 left."

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/10/brian_hoyer_receives_another.html


I do think the QB gets a little too much credit for wins and a little too much blame for losses (again, see some of the crazy shit people were saying about putting in Manziel if the Browns lose one game against Tennessee). But failing to recognize that Hoyer LED that comeback is painfully ignorant to the role a quarterback plays in comeback drives.
 
I do mainly agree with Boobie on Hoyer, but with one problem i think Boobie fails to recognize or atleast state out loud.

Hoyer is a good game manager and has a quick release. He isnt a top qb, but few are, but he is a 3rd tier qb, ie middle of the pack among starters. Do we continue to use 1st round picks to hope to find that top qb or do we use those picks to strengthen the team around him like a Baltimore, Seattle or SF.

One thing is for sure he is the best QB we have had since the return and i am including a much underrated qb in in Couch in that group. 22 qb's later, do we scrap what we have or do we roll with it and get better elsewhere?

Tough decision either way.
 
I do mainly agree with Boobie on Hoyer, but with one problem i think Boobie fails to recognize or atleast state out loud.

Hoyer is a good game manager and has a quick release.
He isnt a top qb, but few are, but he is a 3rd tier qb, ie middle of the pack among starters. Do we continue to use 1st round picks to hope to find that top qb or do we use those picks to strengthen the team around him like a Baltimore, Seattle or SF.

One thing is for sure he is the best QB we have had since the return and i am including a much underrated qb in in Couch in that group. 22 qb's later, do we scrap what we have or do we roll with it and get better elsewhere?

Tough decision either way.

I've simply maintained all along that Hoyer is gonna be Hoyer.

He's limited physically, but he's incredibly smart and has a quick release which makes him a good fit for this offense.

What he ISN'T, however, is a top level QB who will put a team on his back and carry them in the same way elite quarterbacks can.


That is apparently enough to be dubbed a noted parade-rainer.

:coffee:
 
FWIW...not everybody would have been calling for Manziel if the Browns didn't come back.

I'd be disappointed in myself if I called for Manziel at any point this year.

Only way I want Manziel in there is if Hoyer gets hurt. There is no doubt in my mind that Manziel is unable to provide what Hoyer has done thus far this year. Not a whole hell of a lot of rookies can though.

Need a bigger sample size to say whether Hoyer is the QB of the future. But I wouldn't be at all shocked if by the end of the year Manziel's name is largely forgotten.
 
FWIW...not everybody would have been calling for Manziel if the Browns didn't come back.

I'd be disappointed in myself if I called for Manziel at any point this year.

Only way I want Manziel in there is if Hoyer gets hurt. There is no doubt in my mind that Manziel is unable to provide what Hoyer has done thus far this year. Not a whole hell of a lot of rookies can though.

Need a bigger sample size to say whether Hoyer is the QB of the future. But I wouldn't be at all shocked if by the end of the year Manziel's name is largely forgotten.

And I think we can all agree that this would be the best thing for Manziel. Having the ability to sit 2 or 3 whole seasons will aid in his development tremendously.
 
I understand what you are trying to say, but pointing out a couple flaws in a quarterback's performance while also not identifying his strengths makes zero sense. You can look at any quarterback and say "oh well if they completed pass x, they would not be in the position to make that game winning drive, it wouldn't have been necessary". But, that is a spiraling staircase where you are expecting a perfect performance from a quarterback, which is unreasonable. The bottom line is you want your guy to be able to perform when the game is on the line, which is what Hoyer has proven he can do. Try telling a guy in that locker room that they didn't win the game from that final drive and you'll get laughed out of the room. Just a completely foolish argument.
Did I not just say Hoyer was the driving force of the win? How is that not "identifying his strengths"? I simply used the 4th down play as a reference point. If he had finished that drive and the team ended up not needing that last drive, which made Hoyer look like a hero, does it make Hoyer's performance worse? Absolutely not. That's the point. All I said was it's not as simple as the poster was making it seem, that he has two game winning drives, thus he automatically was the driving force to those wins. I agreed that he "won" the game, I disagreed with the reasoning.

Don't really care if the Browns locker room would laugh at me, that's not going to change my opinion to a cliche about performing at your best when the game is on the line.
 
Hoyer is playing well enough to be 4-0 this season, easily. The reason we aren't is the defense is shitting the bed and the team doesn't play first halves like they're that interested. Hoyer is managing games very well and making plays when it counts more often than not while we lean on our running game. He isn't carrying the team on his back, but he's certainly leading them. I think his ceiling is a little higher than we're seeing out of him right now but not much more than that, which I think is just fine if we continue to build a good team around him.

I'm pretty optimistic about our situation going forward, even if that eventually means giving the reigns to Manziel in a few years. I hope some infatuated owner offers us a Trent Richardson deal for him and we draft someone else, but if he's going to succeed its going to take several years I think and we're putting him in a decent situation for the future by building up the rest of the team right now.
 
I do mainly agree with Boobie on Hoyer, but with one problem i think Boobie fails to recognize or atleast state out loud.

Hoyer is a good game manager and has a quick release. He isnt a top qb, but few are, but he is a 3rd tier qb, ie middle of the pack among starters. Do we continue to use 1st round picks to hope to find that top qb or do we use those picks to strengthen the team around him like a Baltimore, Seattle or SF.

One thing is for sure he is the best QB we have had since the return and i am including a much underrated qb in in Couch in that group. 22 qb's later, do we scrap what we have or do we roll with it and get better elsewhere?

Tough decision either way.

I think the decision is getting easier and easier. The team drafted Manziel to be an understudy. If he is indeed becoming a professional in how he approaches his job and the preparation a QB is expected to do week in and week out, Hoyer is going to have a few prime years. Right now, he doesn't seem to be as beat up as many 29 year olds because he spent so many game days on the bench. Drafting a QB in the first round yet again would start looking like Wayne Embry going crazy for centers in the early 90's or Matt Millen and his scouts getting drunk on prima donna receivers in the top 5 of drafts.

If the people who want to make a media splash *cough ownership* continue to ignore the coach and his stance that there are other holes to fill besides QB, there is a big problem on our hands.
 
And I think we can all agree that this would be the best thing for Manziel. Having the ability to sit 2 or 3 whole seasons will aid in his development tremendously.

He probably needs it too. He's definitely not ready to be a starting QB in the NFL. I think a lot of times why some QB's become busts, is not only that they're put out there too early, but the talent around them is bad. Well, not necessarily always bad, but very young and inexperienced.

So they're expected to come in, make everyone around them better, while taking their lumps, learning, adjusting, etc, to the NFL game. Bad talent, or inexperience skilled players makes a young QB's job much harder.

We have talent on offense, but they're young, inexperienced, and will make mistakes. A veteran QB can patch that up much better than a young QB, that's still learning his way himself.

Aaron Rodgers was in the ideal position. Not just because of Brett Favre, because the skill position players were talented, seasoned veterans, that knew how to play on a winning team. It made the healing process much easier.

If he was drafted by us, I don't think he'd have been a bust, but there's no doubt in my mind he wouldn't be nearly as good as he is now.

Having Hoyer continue to play, being a veteran, definitely allows the skill position players develop faster. Let's face it, two rookie running backs, and a very young receiving core needs that too. This will help Johnny out a lot when his time comes.

But the way Hoyer is playing, Johnny might not be seeing a snap in quite some time, and that's not exactly a bad problem to have too.
 
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