The ISIS offensive in Iraq

[AlohaCav]

Are you kidding me? We shouldn't have been there in the first place.

I don't completely disagree..but we were.

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[AlohaCav]

And yes it's 100% going to happen in Afghanistan. They're in no way ready to fight off the Taliban on their own.

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[kosis]

Wait...kosis, what?

You're asking everyone else to provide you with evidence that it's real? That doesn't make any sense.

How about if you prove it's not real since like 99% of the population believes it's real, including the National Security Council and the FBI. I'd think both groups, trustworthy or not, would have far greater interest in the general public believing it's fake and he's still alive...so why lie? Hell, the Pope buys in too.

I remember these theories swirling around the other three beheading videos. I assume it's somehow tied to the fact that these are horribly put together videos and people don't want to believe that human beings can be so awful.

Either way, I don't get your theory here.

Maybe my tone came off wrong, but have you seen the video?

I'm not asking everyone to provide evidence. From what we've seen in the past, from what these groups are capable of, from every logical angle I can come up with... the video is fake. Look, it is not beneath ISIS to behead Foley. As I said, I assumed it was real. There are plenty of beheading videos out there that are real, and they all include the cutting, massive amounts of blood, and multiple co-conspirators chanting.

Guys, the entire point of this stuff is to instill fear in the viewers, in this case Americans, by the brutality that ISIS is capable of. So why on earth would you not show any of the blood and death in a damned beheading video?? These people ARE awful. This sickening stuff happens all the time. But now these killers are fading to black before any cuts occurred? I mean, I'm not taking a leap of faith her. What would be the point??

 

[kosis]

Why did you name only the U.S. and Mossad if you "honestly have no idea"?

Anyway, you can concoct any number of explanations for "who benefits". That's the easiest thing in the world for a conspiracy theorist because their starting premise involves an assumed evil motive on the part of the target of their theory. The much better question to ask is who would have an interest in pointing out that something is false. And if the folks who should be screaming "this is fake" aren't doing so, then perhaps you should question the assumption that it is false.

But the most obvious answer to the "who benefits" question is ISIS anyway. They were the ones holding him prisoner, and who have openly claimed responsibility for having done this.



First, you say this as though it is a self-evidence, inarguable truth, yet you didn't provide a link despite that being the very first thing I asked to see. If you just saw it, you shouldn't have a problem directing the rest of us to it so we can judge for ourselves. Yet despite that being the very first thing I asked for in my post, you didn't link it. So where is it?

Second, "edited" does not equate to being "faked". The stills I've seen show just one guy standing there with a relatively small knife, grasping another man by the neck who is kneeling. The second he actually started cutting the neck, there would likely have been a struggle that would not have made for good propaganda because the perpetrator would like to be perceive as completely in command. I haven't seen it, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if ISIS edited out any struggle, and just skipped from the cutting to him being held there while already being dead/bled out. Doesn't make the end result any less real, though.

Third, if it was Mossad, or the U.S., or anyone other than ISIS itself behind that video...how did they get Foley so as to make the video possible in the first place? There doesn't seem to be any dispute that it was really him, or that ISIS had been the organization holding him for a long time. Another released prisoner confirmed they were the ones holding Foley. So it doesn't seem possible for anyone other than ISIS to have made the video at all.

Fourth, if it is as laughably false as you claim, why aren't all sorts of reputable journalists making that same claim? There are plenty of prominent anti-war people in the media in the U.S. and elsewhere. If ordinary people like yourself can see how obviously false it is, there should be an echoing chorus among actual experts. But there isn't.

Fifth, the only specific parties at whom you've pointed a finger are the U.S., and Mossad, so let's start with them Do you really think either the U.S./CIA or Mossad is so incompetent that they'd stage a video that even you and your buddies can so easily recognize as fake? That makes absolutely zero sense. What does make sense is that actual experts (such as the FBI and intelligence services around the world) know that the "flaws" you point to are meaningless. Just because the video was edited does not mean it doesn't show the murder of Mr. Foley.



And if I don't have first-hand evidence that the Holocaust, moon landing, Challenger explosion, or 9/11 attack on the Pentagon were authentic, I guess that makes them bogus too, eh?

Here's my evidence: The FBI -- whose expertise I trust more than yours -- has said its authentic. His family has said that it is him. ISIS, the group known to have been holding it, says it was him and confirmed the killing. And there is no explanation other than ISIS that makes sense. Just for starters, he was a prisoner of ISIS, and they were the only ones who would have been able to make the video in the first place for that reason alone. Additionally:

If the U.S. was not involved in the fake/fraudulent murder of Foley, then the President and almost every other person in the country would have every incentive to point out it is a lie. It is a political negative for the President that this happened on his watch. And all our allies would be expected to also point out that it was "fake".

And if the U.S. or Mossad was involved in producing a fraudulent video, then every enemy the U.S. has in the world would be crying it to the heavens. ISIS itself would be denying it, and would claim it is just more lying by the U.S. and its Jewish Masters in Israel. Arab governments would be pointing it out. Anti-war media publications all over the country -- and anti-war politicians in the U.S. as well -- would be pointing it out.

And it would be a damn wet dream for Vladimir Putin, who would love nothing more than being able to credibly claim that the U.S. has created a fraudulent video to justify another invasion of Iraq.

Yet, nothing. No denial by the U.S. or its allies. No denial by the enemies of the U.S. No denials by any media watchdogs or enterprising journalists. Not even a denial from the people accused of having murdered him in that video.

But, why not tell me your U.S./Mossad theory so we can see if it makes sense?

I'm sorry, I misinterpreted what you said and thought you had seen the video. I won't embed it, but there's a link here. Please watch it for yourself. There can be no discussion without you seeing it.

http://truthuncensored.net/warning-...-beheaded-by-isis-in-chilling-video-to-obama/

You asked me who could be behind something like this and I listed the US (beheadings of Americans can incite Americans), Mossad (a distraction from the Gaza initiative and ability to link Hamas with ISIS and gain public support) and war mongers in the ME (literally anyone in the Middle East). So I've named The West, Israel, and all of the Middle East as possibilities... despite what you want to believe, I haven't really narrowed it down to a particular conspiracy plot. I don't have one. Just throwing stuff out there. But -and I'm speaking very generally here- you try to play naive as if public executions of innocent Americans in HD wouldn't affect the opinions of America. IF someone was trying to drum up pro-war rhetoric to further increase offensive against the ME, this would definitely help, no?

Why has ISIS supposedly taken credit? I don't know. Why would they claim a fake video? No clue. Why would the State, FBI, and other nations verify the video's legitimacy? Again, who knows.

Where is James Foley? Maybe still captive. Maybe dead. Maybe shuffled away somewhere. For all I know he knew he was being paraded out there for this video and went along with it and is in hiding somewhere. Maybe he turned and went Homeland Brody and wanted to join ISIS. I can't overstate that I'm unaware of the reasoning to this whole thing.

I'm not saying I have the answers. I'm saying the video, to me, is so glaringly fake that there has to be an answer there somewhere. Let me know your thoughts after you watch it.

 

[kosis]

I think it's real, mainly because the powers that be say it is.

This just isn't good enough. If you were going to make a beheading video with friends for a short film (and didn't really intend to actually kill your buddy), tell me this isn't a prototype of how to do it...

 

[Chris]

This just isn't good enough. If you were going to make a beheading video with friends for a short film (and didn't really intend to actually kill your buddy), tell me this isn't a prototype of how to do it...

I mean, people in here have pretty much destroyed your point that it isn't real.. not sure what you're basing it on that it's fake. I'm legitimately confused by your take.

I hope it was fake and he's still alive but meh ... almost zero chance of that.

 

[macbdog]

I mean, people in here have pretty much destroyed your point that it isn't real.. not sure what you're basing it on that it's fake. I'm legitimately confused by your take.

I hope it was fake and he's still alive but meh ... almost zero chance of that.

Yes, this guy is still alive. The US government just loves to have family members in this instance all over national TV saying how the government didn't do enough. And the Obama administration? When they heard this was a chance to go back into Iraq, they were like 'FUCK YEAH!! We loved that place'. Yeah, I say no. You got to be pretty far down the rabbit hole to honestly believe this. I didn't realize that VICE is also a stooge of the Western world governments, too, because they are the only ones to get real access to ISIS so far and pretty much confirmed what was thought of the movement. Including pointing out how not showing the actual beheading was their attempt to be 'less shocking', not to us but to their potential recruits since prior videos like this showing a graphical execution was having the opposite effect (read: Al Qieda even saying they go to far). But whatevs. People are going to believe- and not believe- what they want, even with several different reference points.

 

[Chris]

Yes, this guy is still alive. The US government just loves to have family members in this instance all over national TV saying how the government didn't do enough. And the Obama administration? When they heard this was a chance to go back into Iraq, they were like 'FUCK YEAH!! We loved that place'. Yeah, I say no. You got to be pretty far down the rabbit hole to honestly believe this. I didn't realize that VICE is also a stooge of the Western world governments, too, because they are the only ones to get real access to ISIS so far and pretty much confirmed what was thought of the movement. Including pointing out how not showing the actual beheading was their attempt to be 'less shocking', not to us but to their potential recruits since prior videos like this showing a graphical execution was having the opposite effect (read: Al Qieda even saying they go to far). But whatevs. People are going to believe- and not believe- what they want, even with several different reference points.

I watched that VICE documentary. Bolded is very interesting, did not know about that.

 

[The Oi]

Kosis,

Thanks for the clarification. I get what you're saying.

If I were to subscribe to any theory of that being a faked video, it would he something like the following:

Most likely:
James Foley is dead and he was killed in a less violent way. For example, he almost got away and they shot him to death, or he died of an illness obtained from infections or some other less violent, less dramatic death

Far less likely:
He really did get away and he's in hiding until he's safely back in the US.

ISIS has everything to gain from the video being real and claiming it.The US has a lot less to gain from lying about their belief that the video is real.

I agree that our government fear mongers and uses it to motivate Americans to be on board for attacks of other countries and groups, but I just don't see ISIS being willing to accomodate the US in these tactics.

 

[kosis]

I mean, people in here have pretty much destroyed your point that it isn't real.. not sure what you're basing it on that it's fake. I'm legitimately confused by your take.

I hope it was fake and he's still alive but meh ... almost zero chance of that.

Lol. I'm basing it on the video! There's a beheading ON VIDEO, not showing the beheading or the death on the video! My God, Chris.

Yes, this guy is still alive. The US government just loves to have family members in this instance all over national TV saying how the government didn't do enough. And the Obama administration? When they heard this was a chance to go back into Iraq, they were like 'FUCK YEAH!! We loved that place'. Yeah, I say no. You got to be pretty far down the rabbit hole to honestly believe this. I didn't realize that VICE is also a stooge of the Western world governments, too, because they are the only ones to get real access to ISIS so far and pretty much confirmed what was thought of the movement. Including pointing out how not showing the actual beheading was their attempt to be 'less shocking', not to us but to their potential recruits since prior videos like this showing a graphical execution was having the opposite effect (read: Al Qieda even saying they go to far). But whatevs. People are going to believe- and not believe- what they want, even with several different reference points.

Didn't say it had to be the US... and of course ISIS is real. Never in dispute. So you're saying the guys that are beheading people are toning it down and intentionally not showing the death because it would bother people/recruits? I mean... then why even make the video? Nevermind...

 

[Chris]

Lol. I'm basing it on the video! There's a beheading ON VIDEO, not showing the beheading or the death on the video! My God, Chris.



Didn't say it had to be the US... and of course ISIS is real. Never in dispute. So you're saying the guys that are beheading people are toning it down and intentionally not showing the death because it would bother people/recruits? I mean... then why even make the video? Nevermind...

I'm the one who should be saying "my God." They don't show the beheading on video...so ... it must be fake.

Quite a mound of evidence you have there. Terrible logic.

 

[kosis]

I'm the one who should be saying "my God." They don't show the beheading on video...so ... it must be fake.

Quite a mound of evidence you have there. Terrible logic.

Terrible logic? I'm talking about the precedent set by ISIS itself, the nature of these videos, the entire point of these videos, the brutality of this group, the blood lust of this group, etc... Your logic is "the powers that be said so". Round of applause, sir.

 

[Chris]

Terrible logic? I'm talking about the precedent set by ISIS itself, the nature of these videos, the entire point of these videos, the brutality of this group, the blood lust of this group, etc... Your logic is "the powers that be said so". Round of applause, sir.

If they had a motivation to keep it from us that it was fake, I might agree with you. They don't.

It's been covered enough why it isn't fake. The stance that they don't show the beheading so it must be fake, again, is not convincing at all.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I'm sorry, I misinterpreted what you said and thought you had seen the video. I won't embed it, but there's a link here. Please watch it for yourself. There can be no discussion without you seeing it.

Okay, I guess I had seen that previously. I know that Youtube and others had yanked it, so I didn't know if the version I had seen was the one to which you were referring.

Having seen it, my comments remain exactly as they were before. It is edited, and it looks to me like they skipped the actual killing and were holding up his dead body there at the end. But that doesn't mean the video doesn't show him dead. And in fact, there's a story this morning saying that's exactly what forensic experts are saying -- the killing is staged, but the video still shows him dead.

http://www.news.com.au/world/london...list-james-foley/story-fndir2ev-1227034541900

You asked me who could be behind something like this and I listed the US (beheadings of Americans can incite Americans), Mosad (a distraction from the Gaza initiative and ability to link Hamas with ISIS and gain public support) and war mongers in the ME (literally anyone in the Middle East). So I've named The West, Israel, and all of the Middle East as possibilities... despite what you want to believe, I haven't really narrowed it down to a particular conspiracy plot. I don't have one. Just throwing stuff out there.

You didn't address a single argument I made regarding anyone but ISIS being responsible for this. Not one. And saying that you're "just throwing stuff out there" is simply a transparent license for making baseless accusations that ignore reason and common sense.

Just for starters, you've offered absolutely nothing addressing the point that the only group that could have staged this was ISIS, because ISIS was the group that actually had Foley. How do you stage a video that clearly includes Foley without Foley? There was enough movement and talking by him in that video that his identity doesn't seem in question. Nor did you even attempt to offer a rational explanation why nobody not involved in the alleged conspiracy, including enemies of the U.S. and U.S. policy in that region, have accused the U.S., Mossad, or anyone other than ISIS of being behind that video.

But -and I'm speaking very generally here- you try to play naive as if public executions of innocent Americans in HD wouldn't affect the opinions of America. IF someone was trying to drum up pro-war rhetoric to further increase offensive against the ME, this would definitely help, no?

I recognize the possibility of "false flag" operations, like the alleged Polish attack on a German radar station that the Nazis used as an excuse to invade Poland, or the Pueblo incident. The first problem is that in every false flag operation, the group/nation being falsely accused of the act in question denies it. This would be the first false flag operation in history where the falsely accused group takes immediate public credit. It doesn't make sense.

The second problem is that we had already started heavy airstrikes and bombing before this video. So what exactly was gained? Given that the FBI, military, and intelligence community all are complicit in confirming or not questioning that Foley was 1) being held by ISIS and 2) killed/shown dead in that video, the order to lie about this must have come from the top. So what did Obama gain by pushing a fraudulent video? He was already bombing them, and still opposes the introduction of ground combat troops even after that video. Plus, we already have all this other stuff that is actually being used to justify military action, including horrible atrocities committed against people in that region and threats against the U.S.. Nobody is using the killing of Foley to justify anything additionally.

And the third problem is that the risk/reward of a "false flag" operation like this makes no sense. If this truly is a U.S. government or Mossad operation, the consequences of it being exposed would be catastrophic for whomever is behind it. And as I noted above, what is being gained? We already were bombing them before this video, and nobody is citing this video as the justification for more military action. It's a huge risk for no real benefit.

Why has ISIS supposedly taken credit? I don't know. Why would they claim a fake video? No clue. Why would the State, FBI, and other nations verify the video's legitimacy? Again, who knows.

Your inability to offer any plausible theories to answer those questions is why your argument here is ridiculous. You can't just ignore all the flaws inherent in your argument by saying "who knows"?

Where is James Foley? Maybe still captive. Maybe dead. Maybe shuffled away somewhere. For all I know he knew he was being paraded out there for this video and went along with it and is in hiding somewhere. Maybe he turned and went Homeland Brody and wanted to join ISIS. I can't overstate that I'm unaware of the reasoning to this whole thing.

Can you concoct even a marginally coherent argument for him having being held by anyone but ISIS?

I'm not saying I have the answers. I'm saying the video, to me, is so glaringly fake that there has to be an answer there somewhere. Let me know your thoughts after you watch it.

I actually gave you my thoughts in my last post, reiterated them here, and linked an article that agrees with them. If you have something that offers a coherent theory on how the U.S., Mossad, Iran, or anyone else but ISIS is responsible, I'd love to read it.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

So you're saying the guys that are beheading people are toning it down and intentionally not showing the death because it would bother people/recruits? I mean... then why even make the video? Nevermind...

If you saw the beheading of Daniel Pearl, you could see that it was a very messy and prolonged thing that took more than one guy. In this video, you have one jihadi trying to prove how powerful he is by doing it himself. Of course, that isn't possible. There would be a struggle, he might lose his grip, etc. So, they edit it -- badly -- so that none of that struggle is shown, and it looks like something this one jihadi can do by himself, in a clean way that demonstrates his power.