The ISIS offensive in Iraq

[macbdog]

Huh. That's a pretty sobering piece.

 

[Maximus]

ISIS burn 45 people to death in captured Iraqi town of al-Baghdadi as Islamists attack the homes of security forces' families

• Western town al-Baghdadi captured by ISIS fighters last week
• Victims thought to be members of security forces and their families
• Follows barbaric video of Jordanian pilot Lieutenant Muath al-Kaseasbeh
• Attack is only five miles from air base with 320 US Marines

By KATE PICKLES FOR MAILONLINE

PUBLISHED: 13:15 EST, 17 February 2015 | UPDATED: 15:08 EST, 17 February 2015

Militants from Islamic State have burned 45 people to death in the western Iraqi town of al-Baghdadi, according to the local police chief.

Col Qasim al-Obeidi said the motive was unknown but he believed some of the victims were members of the security forces.

He has pleaded for help from the government and international community and said the compound, which houses the families of security personnel and local officials, was now under attack.

It follows the capture of al-Baghdadi, near Ain al-Asad air base, by ISIS fighters last week.

 

[The Oi]

Great article.

The TLDR is:

-If Muslims really stick to the text (as ISIS does), Islam is NOT a peaceful religion
-We should have intervened as soon as ISIS started to gain traction in the ME
-We should continue air attacks
-Ground attacks probably wouldn't work
-Our only real remaining option is to be patient and wait until members of ISIS start to realize the prophecies aren't coming true, get deflated and disband

 

[gourimoko]

Great article.

The TLDR is:

-If Muslims really stick to the text (as ISIS does), Islam is NOT a peaceful religion

ISIS does not "stick to the text" of the Qu'ran. This is like saying the Westboro Baptists are the most accurate interpretation of Christianity.

C'mon...

The ISIS beheadings of aid workers is in no way justified in the Qu'ran. In fact, the killing of the Americans who had converted to Islam was itself blasphemous in the highest degree possible ("For whomever were to kill a believer in God, let that person's punishment be Hell and let God's wrath be upon him.").

The killing of the two dozen Coptic Christians is a direct violation of the laws of God which 1) protect all Arabs and Africans; 2) protect all Christians (specifically enumerated in the Achtiname of Muhammad).

Muslims within the Khalifa are commanded to levy a tithe from Christians (specifically) according to Sharia. Christians living outside the Khalifa are not required to pay the tax.

Outside of the tax, Muslims are commanded to protect and defend Christians living within the borders of the Khalifa or any Muslim nation. They are also to protect and respect their churches and places of worship.

Obviously, ISIS has done the exact opposite of all of these things. They do not represent the religion of more than 1.6 billion people. Their actions are blasphemous and directly contradictory to the Prophet Muhammad's teachings (whether you agree with them, or not).

 

[macbdog]

I suggest you read the article and break it down with your argument, Jigo was just paraphrasing.

 

[Sebastian]

Muslim boots and American assistance both material, and in the form of air power and training, and lethal, is the best solution to kill Daesh.

Egypt can deal with Libya. Jordan, Iraq, the Pesh and the Turks should launch a joint-offensive to kill Daesh proper.

 

[gourimoko]

I suggest you read the article and break it down with your argument, Jigo was just paraphrasing.

I understand, and you're probably right I should at least read the article. My post wasn't directed at Jigo; but rather, the concept that Islam is somehow more inherently violent than any other religion.

 

[Chris]

Muslim boots and American assistance both material, and in the form of air power and training, and lethal, is the best solution to kill Daesh.

Egypt can deal with Libya. Jordan, Iraq, the Pesh and the Turks should launch a joint-offensive to kill Daesh proper.

Serious question: could ISIS withstand a joint offensive by these forces? I would think not. What is the best estimate of their number of fighters? I read something like 40,000. Not only are numbers not on their side, I have to assume equipment, training, etc are not on their side either. Now an insurgency is one thing, but how difficult could this be for such an offensive to take place? Backed by American air power (and the Jordanians are no joke in this department either) wouldn't this be highly effective in crippling and destroying the power base of ISIS?

God forbid we put our own boots on the ground. I doubt that happens. The administration seems to believe our air power backing Arab ground forces are what is necessary. But imagine 20,000 U.S. Marines entering the fray too. Would ISIS even stand a lick of a chance? But again that won't happen. Still I'd think the combined Peshmerga, Iraqi Army, and other forces you mentioned would be more than enough to destroy ISIS.

Is this the type of thing that is just going to take a bunch of time but the outcome is not in doubt? It's frustrating. People are being butchered and we have to read and watch it every week.

The problem with these shitheads is you will destroy their power base and effectively shut them down but then begins the "insurgency" that seems to define modern warfare where they will keep killing people in a futile effort and retaliation with suicide bombs and the like. But that's a better alternative to letting them have their own goddam state like they do right now.

 

[JSS2306]

I understand, and you're probably right I should at least read the article. My post wasn't directed at Jigo; but rather, the concept that Islam is somehow more inherently violent than any other religion.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"


That last one sounds really familiar...

 

[The Oi]

@gourimoko

As much as you generally disagree with @JSS2306, that shit is right there. It's IN the Quran.

ISIS is just carrying out the orders. If you're not doing what ISIS is doing, you're not following the orders.

I like a lot of Muslims. But I like them because they largely ignore their religion. I could say that for most people that I like and their religions though too.

 

[Chris]

I don't know a lot about Islam itself, or religion in general but aren't there parts of Christian texts that denounce gays and people who don't believe and ask for them to be killed? And other heinous acts? And these are, over time, kind of moderated and lessened as we have become more enlightened to the world ... ?

 

[JSS2306]

There's a ton of violent shit in the old testament too but I think the difference between the religions is the people carrying out the acts. You just don't see this type of behavior from Christians in today's world.

It isn't just ISIS that uses beheading as a form of punishment. There are many, many different types of Muslim extremists groups and it really ruins it for the rest of the peaceful Muslims.

Hopefully, in time, the Muslim religion becomes more lax and their books of text be taken less literally. Most Muslims practice this but there's just too many that don't. I'm not religious at all and it doesn't bother me that people are, but it goes overboard when people's basic rights are taken from them. It's a living nightmare right now.

 

[The Oi]

I don't know a lot about Islam itself, or religion in general but aren't there parts of Christian texts that denounce gays and people who don't believe and ask for them to be killed? And other heinous acts? And these are, over time, kind of moderated and lessened as we have become more enlightened to the world ... ?

Yeah, the Old Testament. But in the Old Testament, God was the one committing most of the atrocities.

The Quran demands it's followers commit them. At least that's the way ISIS is reading it.

And yes, most Christians and Muslims have backed far away from the bullshit in the Old Testament and the clear encouragement of aggression in the Quran.

But ISIS don't play that.

 

[Sebastian]

Serious question: could ISIS withstand a joint offensive by these forces? I would think not. What is the best estimate of their number of fighters? I read something like 40,000. Not only are numbers not on their side, I have to assume equipment, training, etc are not on their side either. Now an insurgency is one thing, but how difficult could this be for such an offensive to take place? Backed by American air power (and the Jordanians are no joke in this department either) wouldn't this be highly effective in crippling and destroying the power base of ISIS?

God forbid we put our own boots on the ground. I doubt that happens. The administration seems to believe our air power backing Arab ground forces are what is necessary. But imagine 20,000 U.S. Marines entering the fray too. Would ISIS even stand a lick of a chance? But again that won't happen. Still I'd think the combined Peshmerga, Iraqi Army, and other forces you mentioned would be more than enough to destroy ISIS.

Is this the type of thing that is just going to take a bunch of time but the outcome is not in doubt? It's frustrating. People are being butchered and we have to read and watch it every week.

The problem with these shitheads is you will destroy their power base and effectively shut them down but then begins the "insurgency" that seems to define modern warfare where they will keep killing people in a futile effort and retaliation with suicide bombs and the like. But that's a better alternative to letting them have their own goddam state like they do right now.

A true offensive would cripple Daesh but I doubt one summer of fighting would finish them off. Now, we don't have confirmation on whether Iraq would allow foreign troops to assist in an offensive. However, it is a good possibility as more and more of the populace in neighboring nations demand action. The Jordanians are massing on the border and I don't think they are there to get a tan.

1. Latest estimates put Daesh at around 8,000-13,000 core fighters. By rallying allied extremist groups, they can maybe boast 30,000. However, those forces are scattered over two countries and movement in mass is difficult due to poor logistics train and domination of the air by coalition forces.

2. Obviously, the RJA, Turkish Army, IA and Pesh can field a lot more troops than that. The Jordanians and Turks have superior equipment, training, leadership and logistics. The IA and the Kurds are of much lesser quality with poor logistics support. There are 10,000 US troops in Iraq at present. Everything from advisors and Special Forces to support troops.

3. The problem is that a fanatical enemy with every expectation that they will be shot on sight if captured will fight hard and to the last bullet. They will inflict many casualties.


What an Offensive May Look Like

If it were up to me as King, I would conduct an offensive led by the Jordanians in the south, and the Turks in the north driving toward each other with the IA providing more troops and US officers in an advisory capacity. US Special Forces and the SAS are already on the ground conducting recon missions and other less than savory operations including C3 node destruction. Coalition air forces will make Daesh movement impossible. The end state of this offensive would be the splitting of Daesh in two, severe attrition of ISIS forces and equipment, degrading of ISIS support zones and the liberation of as much territory as possible.

1. Jordanian and Turkish heavy forces, with the elite IA units, will constitute the spearheads while the rest of the IA serve as support troops and hold captured territory.

2. IA forces around Baghdad will conduct a local offensive toward Falluja and Taji as a holding action to prevent ISIS reinforcement and to give the capital more breathing room.

3. Coalition forces should aim to split Daesh forces in two and separate Iraq from Syria with armored pincers closing at Qaim. I anticipate that Daesh retreats from outlying areas and concentrate in their core support zone of the Sunni triangle.

As the fight goes into urban centers, progress will bog down as Daesh consolidates their defenses and airpower becomes constrained. Maintaining pressure throughout the winter will prevent Daesh from reconsolidating and a fall or winter offensive would administer the coup de grace.

 

[gourimoko]

@The Oi , I don't think you realize how Islam works. The laws set forth by the Prophet are the Laws of God. The Achtiname of Muhammad is the Law of God.

Jigo, @Chris is right about the Bible. You saying "yeah, it's mostly God doing the killing" is false. The laws of the Hebrews were clear and death is mandatory for a number of 'crimes' including not being of the Convenant.

If people want to say all of the Abrahamic faiths are not "religions of peace," then so be it. But to single out Islam is totally ridiculous.

Saying "well Christianity and Judaism is okay because..." makes no sense at all.