The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

[CardiacCavs]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

I'm not sure what they're going to do about that story, as on the show we have not established that

Spoiler

Mance has a wife or a child. I don't believe anyone has been cast for that role this season either. I guess she could pop up next season, or maybe they'll just cut out the whole "grieving Gilly" angle (I mean, it was really annoying in the books) and just have her bring her own kid on the journey.

Spoiler

Maybe they make it so that Melisandre wants to burn Aemon? He has the blood of kings in him. It could give Jon a reason to send him away. Although, that avoids the theme of making Jon seem very cold as a Lord Commander. Although, I remember Kit Harrington say he makes a ruthless decision at the end of this season, so perhaps that won't be necessary.

 

[Chris]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Hard to sympathize with the wildlings and characters like Tormund when we watch them butcher villages of men women and children.

Spoiler

Isn't it kind of important that we do, when they join Jon and the Night's Watch later on?

Don't remember Thenn being such a piece of shit in the books, either, but I may be remembering wrong. I know Tormund was like a jolly funny guy and in the show he's this cold blooded rampaging barbarian guy. Weird.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Spoiler

Maybe they make it so that Melisandre wants to burn Aemon? He has the blood of kings in him. It could give Jon a reason to send him away. Although, that avoids the theme of making Jon seem very cold as a Lord Commander. Although, I remember Kit Harrington say he makes a ruthless decision at the end of this season, so perhaps that won't be necessary.

In the books, that was the reason that Jon

Spoiler

sent Aemon with Sam and Gilly, and given that Aemon is still around on the show, I imagine they won't be changing that. I really don't know what they'll do about Mace's son, though. Maybe they'll mention something about it this season in the finale or something.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Hard to sympathize with the wildlings and characters like Tormund when we watch them butcher villages of men women and children.

Spoiler

Isn't it kind of important that we do, when they join Jon and the Night's Watch later on?

Don't remember Thenn being such a piece of shit in the books, either, but I may be remembering wrong. I know Tormund was like a jolly funny guy and in the show he's this cold blooded rampaging barbarian guy. Weird.

In the books, the Thenns weren't cannibals. They were kind of just an isolated race of people who practiced a governmental system much like Westeros. They had a lord (Styr in the books) who was godlike to them, and they followed him. They also worked their own metal out of bronze. They were changed on the show presumably to make the wildlings seem like more of a threat.

As far as sympathizing does, though, I don't think a lot of the wildlings were terribly sympathetic in the books either. They were going to make Jon kill that old man, and then killed him when Jon refused. We also know that they regularly raid over the Wall and kidnap women and kill people. I think the Thenns on the show are meant to represent the extreme barbarism the wildlings can be capable of, tempered by your more average people like Mance and Tormund who are comparable to your everyday soldiers; neither good nor evil.

I do agree that they've really screwed up Tormund on the show, though. He was a really fun character in the books, and we've seen precisely none of that. They kind of did the same thing with Mance, removing a lot of what made him a great character and just making him much more bland.

 

[Chris]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

In the books, the Thenns weren't cannibals. They were kind of just an isolated race of people who practiced a governmental system much like Westeros. They had a lord (Styr in the books) who was godlike to them, and they followed him. They also worked their own metal out of bronze. They were changed on the show presumably to make the wildlings seem like more of a threat.

As far as sympathizing does, though, I don't think a lot of the wildlings were terribly sympathetic in the books either. They were going to make Jon kill that old man, and then killed him when Jon refused. We also know that they regularly raid over the Wall and kidnap women and kill people. I think the Thenns on the show are meant to represent the extreme barbarism the wildlings can be capable of, tempered by your more average people like Mance and Tormund who are comparable to your everyday soldiers; neither good nor evil.

I do agree that they've really screwed up Tormund on the show, though. He was a really fun character in the books, and we've seen precisely none of that. They kind of did the same thing with Mance, removing a lot of what made him a great character and just making him much more bland.

True, I guess it's just since the show actually gives you a visual representation of them massacring people, I feel like it's counterproductive for the future. Oh well.

 

[Adam]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

What's up with littlefingers voice? he's changed it right??

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

What's up with littlefingers voice? he's changed it right??

No one really knows. He changed it in like season two or three for some unknown reason and it is just terrible now.

 

[Remi]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Three things still bothering me.

1. I agree with others, definitely miss Strong Belwas. I understand why he was cut, but scenes like from the last episode make you want him in the show.

2. I may be mistaken, but I don't remember Oberyn being bisexual in the books. Not that in the grand scheme of things this is a huge deal, but almost every scene he's been in he's in some sexual act with a guy. I don't know how the average tv viewer sees him.

3. Has anyone called Oberyn the Red Viper once in the show? I mean that's what every person in Westeros knew him as in the books, and we just now get that he studied poison? I know it's still really early, but there hasn't really been a ton of development on him.

 

[CardiacCavs]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Hard to sympathize with the wildlings and characters like Tormund when we watch them butcher villages of men women and children.

Spoiler

Isn't it kind of important that we do, when they join Jon and the Night's Watch later on?

Don't remember Thenn being such a piece of shit in the books, either, but I may be remembering wrong. I know Tormund was like a jolly funny guy and in the show he's this cold blooded rampaging barbarian guy. Weird.

Yeah I think someone mentioned it earlier in the thread somewhere but the Thenns in the books are actually the closest the Wildlings come to being like highborn lords and ladies. They have a similar social structure, more advanced technology (compared to the other wildlings) and

Spoiler

one of them even gets married to Alys Karstark in ADWD.

Seems like D&D wanted to have a clear cut villain for the wall storyline and the show version of the Thenns provide just that. I agree, though, it was rough seeing Yrgritte and Tormund just slaughtering innocent women and children. I think overall that was almost the theme of the episode. Being reminded that although these characters like Littlefinger (despite saving Sansa), Jamie (despite his character arc all of last season) and Ygritte/Tormund have had some redeeming qualities shown to the audience lately, they are still pretty despicable.

As far as your spoiler comment, I think portraying them this way

Spoiler

gives Bowen and the rest of them even more ammunition against Jon when it comes to not supporting his decision to let them past the wall. We hear a lot in the books about how much these older veterans of the Wall hate the wildlings, and from Jon's POV it seems like they are letting their bias cloud their judgements. But with this episode we got to see what sorts of things wildlings do to those who live south of the wall. We don't get to see first hand accounts of Wildlings raping and pillaging the North in the books IIRC.

In the books, that was the reason that Jon

Spoiler

sent Aemon with Sam and Gilly, and given that Aemon is still around on the show, I imagine they won't be changing that. I really don't know what they'll do about Mace's son, though. Maybe they'll mention something about it this season in the finale or something.

Oh. For some reason I forgot that. We are all worried that GRRM might die, man looking at the actor playing Aemon...It looks like he is knocking on death's door right now. He does a good job though.



edit: Didn't read the last page before I commented, oh well.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Oberyn was most definitely bisexual in the books as well. You never see him do anything because he's not a POV character, but Tyrion definitely references the fact that he's rumored to be into both guys and girls.

I don't think they've called him the Viper yet, but episode eight is called The Mountain and the Viper, so I imagine it will come up soon.

 

[Rich]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Man, I'm starting to worry about how some of the things in the books are going to come out in the show and how critical people will be who aren't book readers.

There are three specific choices Martin has made that, over time, I've come to not really like and I'm thinking it's gonna really turn off show only people.

1.

Spoiler

Reviving Cat. This is the most forgivable, because after all she's given the power from Beric, who then dies in her place. So we know it can't be used endlessly by countless numbers of people. But still, bringing her back to life might seem really hokey.

2.

Spoiler

Whatever it is they do with the Mountain. This one isn't as forgivable. We're gonna turn this guy into a walking zombie because...well just because. And with what power? Well, Cersei's new Maester and his experiments. Which begs the question, if he can turn one dead man into a zombie, why not more? Really not a fan of Zombie Mountain AT ALL.

3.

Spoiler

And finally, Aegon. Gonna be mid-way through season 5, people are going to be itching for things to start coming to a head, and what do we get? A brand new claimant to the Throne who has been alive this whole time and we are just now being told about!! Probably Martin's biggest folly and I'm really afraid it's going to exhaust some people. It's partly exhausted me.

On a different topic, I honestly think they'll blow through books 4 and 5 next season. The more I think about it, the more I realize there are story lines that can and should be wiped right out of existence. I've already discussed the book 4 POVs that just need to die, and now that I think about Book 5, I mean holy hell do we really care about

Spoiler

Quentyn Martell? Dude goes to Dany to win her hand, she says no, he dies, Aegon lands in Westeros and Dorne rallies to his side regardless. You could go the entire life of this story and never need to know of Quentyn's existance. Got a feeling he's gonna be cut right the hell out. I mean honestly, you can tell me the story of the Martells through nothing but Oberyn Martell and like 10 minutes dedicated to Doran Martell and one scene dedicated to the whole incident with the Dark Star and that about does it for books 4 and 5 as far as the Martells are concerned.

And I must say, I'm still up in the air as to which is better. While the books certainly can offer more insight and you do get to see the prophecies, man the shows have done such a good job at adapting the world and have the added bonus of cutting through some of the slog that, I think, weakens the story. Normally this wouldn't be the case, because even though every epic story has sluggish moments (that's just the way it has to be) that a television show could cut through, so much more would be lost by the butchering of the characters, the plot, and the setting. I dunno, I really think in the end I'll find myself thinking the show has managed to do it better. The more I watch the show the more it grows on me and the longer it takes Martin to right the longer I have to notice the flaws. It's still a great story he's put together, and everything has flaws, but this is jut one of those rare instances that the television show has managed to tell the story almost just as well.

/rant

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

1. I don't think it will be hokey at all. The show has already established that

Spoiler

people can be brought back to life, but that there is also a cost to the person who is revived (and, it seems, occasionally the person who does the reviving as well). UnCat should provide a suitable "holy shit" moment for non-readers at the end of this season. I'm also really interested to see how her story plays out in the end game. Enough time has been devoted to the Brotherhood, and there has been some set up for a Frey massacre at Riverrun (with Tom O'Sevens being the singer that talks to Edmure, and Edmure's attitude changing dramatically afterward) that I have to assume it's somewhat important.

2. It's blood magic / necromancy.

Spoiler

I wouldn't say that a zombie army can just be easily made, though. How many people did Qyburn have to sacrifice to remake the Mountain? Cercei must have given him at least half a dozen people, and probably more. Only death can pay for life.

3. The

Spoiler

Aegon one is trickier. I agree the story came basically out of nowhere, and I honestly don't think there's anything in the text that really foreshadows it, aside from the cloth dragon image in the House of the Undying, and possibly the stone beast spreading shadow fire (this has been hypothesized as being Jon Connington helping Aegon, who is probably actually a Blackfyre, take the throne, with Connington being the stone beast). Even that is a bit slim as far as foreshadowing goes, especially since the second vision is still pretty up in the air. I feel like Aegon will be important, though, and it's basically a given that he takes King's Landing, allies with Dorne, and ultimately starts a war with Dany.

As far as

Spoiler

Quentyn goes, I think he will be marginalized on the show if he's there at all. If they keep the Dorne plot mostly as-is from the fifth books, they could easily reveal Doran's master plan in episode six or seven and then cut to Quentyn arriving in Meereen to make his marriage offer to Dany, and then ending the season with him getting torched and setting the dragons free. He doesn't actually have to be a main character to still be on the show and effective. I kind of think his death will be important later, so I do think they will include him in a reduced capacity.

And come on...the books are way, way better. :chuckles:

 

[Rich]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

1. I don't think it will be hokey at all. The show has already established that

Spoiler

people can be brought back to life, but that there is also a cost to the person who is revived (and, it seems, occasionally the person who does the reviving as well). UnCat should provide a suitable "holy shit" moment for non-readers at the end of this season. I'm also really interested to see how her story plays out in the end game. Enough time has been devoted to the Brotherhood, and there has been some set up for a Frey massacre at Riverrun (with Tom O'Sevens being the singer that talks to Edmure, and Edmure's attitude changing dramatically afterward) that I have to assume it's somewhat important.

2. It's blood magic / necromancy.

Spoiler

I wouldn't say that a zombie army can just be easily made, though. How many people did Qyburn have to sacrifice to remake the Mountain? Cercei must have given him at least half a dozen people, and probably more. Only death can pay for life.

3. The

Spoiler

Aegon one is trickier. I agree the story came basically out of nowhere, and I honestly don't think there's anything in the text that really foreshadows it, aside from the cloth dragon image in the House of the Undying, and possibly the stone beast spreading shadow fire (this has been hypothesized as being Jon Connington helping Aegon, who is probably actually a Blackfyre, take the throne, with Connington being the stone beast). Even that is a bit slim as far as foreshadowing goes, especially since the second vision is still pretty up in the air. I feel like Aegon will be important, though, and it's basically a given that he takes King's Landing, allies with Dorne, and ultimately starts a war with Dany.

As far as

Spoiler

Quentyn goes, I think he will be marginalized on the show if he's there at all. If they keep the Dorne plot mostly as-is from the fifth books, they could easily reveal Doran's master plan in episode six or seven and then cut to Quentyn arriving in Meereen to make his marriage offer to Dany, and then ending the season with him getting torched and setting the dragons free. He doesn't actually have to be a main character to still be on the show and effective. I kind of think his death will be important later, so I do think they will include him in a reduced capacity.

And come on...the books are way, way better. :chuckles:

Interesting take on number 3 there. I'm really starting to question how much some of the prophecies can be trusted. Like I'm looking at Quaithe at this point as a probable villain, someone using prophecy to get what she wants, and distorting the truth of the matter.

Also, just reading around and I'm seeing comments that GRRM said no POV character would ever go to Asshai? I can't find a quote from him on that though, but man would that be a huge relief.

 

[caf]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Fuck I miss Strong Belwas.

Damnit HBO. I know why you cut him... But dammit.

 

[CardiacCavs]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

This thread is back to looking like a redacted CIA document... :chuckles:

I'm at the point where I'm afraid that D&D will find most of the stuff in AFFC and ADWD that doesn't feature Jon, Sansa, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, some of Brienne, and the King's landing stuff to be not suitable for television. Theon's Arc in ADWD is my favorite but we are already eating into his story. So much of Feast is the Greyjoys and the Martells. The thing is, we aren't sure how important those storylines will be in future books. The Greyjoy story may seem superfluous now, but it looks like they will play a key role in

Spoiler

Dany/Tyrions story in TWOW and beyond. and the Dornish could be huge in the politics of King's Landing as well.

I have so much faith in D&D though that I think they could make these sub-par stories actually interesting. I hope they limit the amount of cutting they do.