The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

So since we clearly don't have much to talk about between episodes and in the forty year wait for book six, have you guys read any other of the big fantasy series of recent years (or further back...matters not)? I'm always looking for new books to read, especially anything that compares to Martin's work.

Here are a few series that I recommend:

The First Law
The Black Company
The Dagger and the Coin

I tried to read the Wheel of Time series. I made it through about five books before I just couldn't keep going out of boredom.

I just started Mistborn today and am really impressed so far. The magic system in the series is pretty ingenious, as is the premise, which is that, 1000 years before the first book, the immortal dark lord won, leaving the majority of the populace as slaves and the planet covered by regular ash-falls.

If anyone has any recommendations, I'm listening.

 

[Shakalu M.D.]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

As a fairly successful amateur saber fencer I can assure you it would make you a terrible fighter. Much of the actual sword angle is done with the wrist. Obviously fighting against other nerds in a gym is different than fighting in a medieval war, but perhaps think of it as dribbling a basketball while wearing a splint on your wrist. Its pretty obvious from even an amateur POV that its a hopeless cause at "expert" levels. His timing might be the same, but he would be incredibly inaccurate with the sword.

Now, stick a dagger Merle-style on there and maybe we're talking. Or just have it be a really good shield hand. I assume using a shield doesn't use the wrist.

Why wouldn't he be able to use his wrist though? I'm talking about essentially doing a Bruce Campbell from army of darkness, but instead of a chainsaw it's just a sword.

I've also fenced, handling a saber/foil isn't even remotely similar to the longswords they use in GoT. :chuckles:

 

[Shakalu M.D.]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

So since we clearly don't have much to talk about between episodes and in the forty year wait for book six, have you guys read any other of the big fantasy series of recent years (or further back...matters not)? I'm always looking for new books to read, especially anything that compares to Martin's work.

Here are a few series that I recommend:

The First Law
The Black Company
The Dagger and the Coin

I tried to read the Wheel of Time series. I made it through about five books before I just couldn't keep going out of boredom.

I just started Mistborn today and am really impressed so far. The magic system in the series is pretty ingenious, as is the premise, which is that, 1000 years before the first book, the immortal dark lord won, leaving the majority of the populace as slaves and the planet covered by regular ash-falls.

If anyone has any recommendations, I'm listening.

It's not really similar to Martin, but a pretty good fantasy series I've read is the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss. The way magic works in this series is pretty clever. The series itself is a frame story.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

It's not really similar to Martin, but a pretty good fantasy series I've read is the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss. The way magic works in this series is pretty clever. The series itself is a frame story.

Yeah, I guess they don't really have to be similar to Martin. The Black Company books really aren't, although The Blade Itself and The Dagger and the Coin are at least similar.

 

[supergoat52]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Why wouldn't he be able to use his wrist though? I'm talking about essentially doing a Bruce Campbell from army of darkness, but instead of a chainsaw it's just a sword.

I've also fenced, handling a saber/foil isn't even remotely similar to the longswords they use in GoT. :chuckles:

Um, because he doesn't have a wrist? I must be missing something, and i'm not familiar with that movie. If in your hypothetical he can still move the sword around in a circle without moving his elbow or shoulder, then maybe something could work, i really have no idea. In my hypothetical he has a sword at a fixed angle to his forearm at all times, which would be unbelievably easy to parry, and basically impossible for him to disengage from a parry because he would have to move his whole arm to do so.

A saber is different than a longsword!?? Psh, next you'll try to tell me i don't know how to use a lightsaber... :chuckles:

 

[Chris]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Lack of wrist would make sword fighting difficult, yeah. :chuckles:

 

[Lionheart]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

SPOILERS from the last episode:

Man oh man they finally dropped the bomb! So Baelish started all of this?! Wow, I had to re-watch that scene just to be clear. I also just realized that the plot lines that basically started the story have been closed or put on the backseat (Robert's bastards, the murder of the Starks, who killed John Arryn), not sure if they will ever be relevant again because a lot of other shit is about to go down. If Littlefinger was THIS cunning I wonder if Varys knows or at least is plotting something as well. He mentioned LF's ambitions when he spoke with Olenna Tyrell which I guess spurred the alliance between LF and the Tyrells. BTW where the fuck has Varys been? I'm pretty sure he hasn't gotten any actual screen time this season yet.

The scene between Tywin and Cersei was the first time I've seen Tywin show a little bit of weakness, specially when he mentioned that one of their gold mines has dried up and that the crown was in debt, I knew it always was in debt but to hear Tywin speak of it makes it seem a lot more serious. Are they are shaping up the Iron Bank to be a major player? I remember Davos referencing them too to maybe finance Stannis' war.

I wonder if there are any consequences with Bran using Hodor. I liked Locke's character as it presented an unknown danger to Jon but I have no problems with him getting killed.

It is a struggle for me to not read the books because the show so far is fantastic, I'll probably give them a go sometime soon.

"Peter of the House Baelish, first of his name, King of the Andals and the First Men and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms."

 

[Rich]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

I just wanted to comment on Baelish and his ability to sit the Throne. Jack said he couldn't do it because of his low birth.

All that matters is how many men you've got on your side. If he walks to King's Landing leading a giant army and kills everyone and plops his ass down on the Throne, who is going to stop him? This is how you go from having a low house to a high house. You make friends and you kill people in the houses above you until they swear fealty to you. I guess people could argue against Baelish sitting on the Throne, and then he could conquer them and put people in charge who won't argue.

 

[The Voice]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

I just wanted to comment on Baelish and his ability to sit the Throne. Jack said he couldn't do it because of his low birth.

All that matters is how many men you've got on your side. If he walks to King's Landing leading a giant army and kills everyone and plops his ass down on the Throne, who is going to stop him? This is how you go from having a low house to a high house. You make friends and you kill people in the houses above you until they swear fealty to you. I guess people could argue against Baelish sitting on the Throne, and then he could conquer them and put people in charge who won't argue.

The only problem with that is he's not a fighter. He would lose in a sword fight to just about anyone and looks physically weak. The mayor of Baltimore will not sit on the iron throne. His game is manipulation. I could see him being the hand of the king and holding the real power.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

I just wanted to comment on Baelish and his ability to sit the Throne. Jack said he couldn't do it because of his low birth.

All that matters is how many men you've got on your side.

I think his utter lack of personal charisma/military experience/natural power base, etc. would make it extraordinarily difficult for him to take the throne, at least if we're talking realistically. He doesn't appear to have any troops of his own, and doesn't really appear "liked" by anyone. So why would any significant force follow him? I can't really think of any historical examples in the RL where that worked. The closest I can think of is Octavian, who had no fighting ability or generalship ability at all, but was a brilliant administrator. But, he also was Caesar's designated heir, which gave him a lot of inherited loyalty and positive vibes from many people. Baelish has none of that, though.

Now, if he's been skimming off the top and making financial arrangements on his own, it certainly is possible he's got enough to hire a lot of mercenaries. But based on Jorah's comments in the last ep. mercenaries may be enough to take KL, but aren't enough to actually take Westeros. Danaerys' hope has always been that she can invade with a relatively small force, and then hope for a rising of the people or some of the nobility to give her staying power. But who is going to rise for Petyr Baelish? Unless he somehow proves himself to be a King people, including members of the nobility, would actually want, I can't see him pulling it off.

 

[Chris]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Then what is Baelish's end game?

You guys are making it sound like that's not even his goal. So what is?

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Then what is Baelish's end game?

You guys are making it sound like that's not even his goal. So what is?

I honestly don't know. I just think his ceiling is Hand of the King.

The main issue I have with him as King is...who loves or fears him enough to put him on the Iron Throne? He can buy people off, but there's not enough gold in the world for most of the lords to allow him to become their King given his low birth. Similarly, people seem to like him well enough, but none of them really love him, and you can't win a crown without people willing to fight and die for you. He's also not physically powerful enough to inspire fear, which is another way to get people to die for you.

Robert won his throne because he was a warrior and because his friends loved him. The lords of the North were willing to fight and die for the Ned because they loved him and the Starks in general. Tywin kept control of the Westerlands because they were terrified of his wrath. Littlefinger has none of that. He's neither loved nor feared, which ironically has been what has allowed him to operate so under the radar for so long. I just can't see anyone willing to fight and die to sit his ass on the throne, or willing to fight and die to keep him there.

Even in the Vale, Littlefinger has resigned himself to the fact that he will never be loved by the lords there, which is why he conspires to have

Spoiler

Sansa marry Harry the Heir

so that he can manipulate them to do what he wants them to. I don't see him ever being able to manipulate his way onto the throne, though.

 

[CardiacCavs]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Yeah, LF will never sit on the throne himself. I don't think that is his style either. He will find a puppet who will do whatever he wants. He could have all the power behind the scenes. LF himself would not be able to inspire loyalty from any of the great houses, at least so far as to get them to send troops to actually put him on the throne. He has no power base of his own, he only relies on others to do his work for him, either through manipulation/coercion or using his silver tongue (in more ways than one when it comes to Lysa).

Jack's point about LF operating under the radar is true, especially in the books. The major players don't even think about LF when it comes to the game of thrones and his influences on it. During Cersei's chapters she hardly even thinks of LF, let alone respects his ability. I think that is the way he likes it, never to be seen as a threat. Show LF is different though (blatantly trying to strong arm Cersei when she is surrounded by guards, what?!).

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Yeah, if I recall one of the only times Cercei thinks of Littlefinger in the fourth/fifth books is when she's frustrated with her new Master of Coin and contemplates sending for him to return to the position. Or maybe that was Kevan during his POV chapter? It was one of the two.

Regardless, it's clear none of the Lannisters even contemplate him being a threat, which is part of the reason he's so powerful. We know for a fact that neither Cercei nor Jaime ever even consider him to be involved in Joffrey's death based on their POV chapters.

What I've always wondered is why Cercei and Jaime don't spend more time pondering who really killed Jon Arryn. Cercei is the most obvious and really, at that time, the only plausible suspect. You'd think she'd want to know more about what the hell happened since she knows she didn't do it.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Then what is Baelish's end game?

You guys are making it sound like that's not even his goal. So what is?

It's a good question. I think his goals definitely include banging Sansa.

I do think him personally becoming King just isn't possible. Lower birth itself wouldn't stop him if he was a great warrior/general, but he's not.

Maybe he is setting things up to emerge, eventually, as the guy who "protected" Sansa, thus earning himself gratitude from the North and perhaps some of the Lords of the Vale. If he marries her, he might be able to arrange effective rulership of both the North and the Vale, even though the titles would come through Sansa. That would make him one of the most powerful lords in the Kingdom, especially if he managed to maintain the friendship of the Tyrells.