The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

[The Human Q-Tip]

Olly had the biggest douche face ever. And he betrayed Jon. I feel zero sympathy for his death.

Same here. But do you suppose the writers/directors intended for him to have the biggest douche face ever, or that is just how we fans interpreted the face of a poor little boy angry that he's about to be snuffed out?

 

[Rich]

Same here. But do you suppose the writers/directors intended for him to have the biggest douche face ever, or that is just how we fans interpreted the face of a poor little boy angry that he's about to be snuffed out?

Yea no that's we interpret it but that's not what they intended. They showed you his family dying so you'd sympathize with him.

 

[godfather]

The interesting thing about this is that the message/moral the writers are attempting to convey may be completely different from how it is actually understood by at least some fans. Like you, my guess is that's what they were trying to convey - the "burden of leadership". But I saw a pretty huge difference between sentencing to death someone who actively participated in the murder of the Lord Commander, and the burning alive of prisoners of war.

So to me, I take it as a sign that Danaerys is becoming power mad. Roasting alive a lord and his son because they refuse to bend the knee is a pretty thinly-disguised reference to what Aerys did to Rickard and Brandon Stark. And to me, Jon has always seemed a very reluctant leader. Rather than lusting after power, he actually dislikes having it.

Danaerys, on the other hand....

At Tyrion's plea not to. Danny didn't have to roast them alive.

But Danny went to the extremes to show she's willing to not just kill, but torture to death anyone that's refuses her claim to the throne. Very much like a tyrant/Mad King would.

Trying to instill fear rather than love/peace as her claim to the throne.

I don't think any of us are supposed to really give a shit about Randyll (he was an asshole) or Dickon (we didn't know him well enough to care).

But just that one, Danny is turning into what she claims she's not. And two, you can't help feel a bit bad for Sam that he lost his brother and even father to a lesser extent because she's hell bent on eviscerating anyone that denies her claim to the throne.

Make no mistake, she will kill anyone that tries to get in her way. I worry for Sam's fate at this point.

 

[Rich]

The interesting thing about this is that the message/moral the writers are attempting to convey may be completely different from how it is actually understood by at least some fans. Like you, my guess is that's what they were trying to convey - the "burden of leadership". But I saw a pretty huge difference between sentencing to death someone who actively participated in the murder of the Lord Commander, and the burning alive of prisoners of war.

So to me, I take it as a sign that Danaerys is becoming power mad. Roasting alive a lord and his son because they refuse to bend the knee is a pretty thinly-disguised reference to what Aerys did to Rickard and Brandon Stark. And to me, Jon has always seemed a very reluctant leader. Rather than lusting after power, he actually dislikes having it.

Danaerys, on the other hand....

Really?

Because I have to say, I think one should be more reluctant to execute a child than a prisoner of war.

I mean if we're gonna apply our modern moral standards and give these men Geneva convention rights, then where in a first world country is it ok to execute a 12 year old boy, no matter his crime?

And in defense of Daenerys, they also refused to go to the Wall.

I mean didn't Tyrion threaten Slynt with the same thing? Go to the Wall or I'm going to have you killed.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Yea no that's we interpret it but that's not what they intended. They showed you his family dying so you'd sympathize with him.

Douche-face trumps crying family.

Another difference - Jon seemed genuinely pained by that decision. Danaerys seemed to relish exercising her power, and killing them horribly with dragonfire.

 

[Rich]

At Tyrion's plea not to. Danny didn't have to roast them alive.

But Danny went to the extremes to show she's willing to not just kill, but torture to death anyone that's refuses her claim to the throne. Very much like a tyrant and her the Mad King would.

Trying to instill fear rather than love/peace as her claim to the throne.

I don't think any of us are supposed to really give a shit about Randyll (he was an asshole) or Dickon (we didn't know him well enough to care).

But just that one, Danny is turning into what she claims she's not. And two, you can't help feel a bit bad for Sam that he lost his brother and even father to a lesser extent because she's hell bent on eviscerating anyone that denies her claim to the throne.

Make no mistake, she will kill anyone that tries to get in her way. I worry for Sam's fate at this point.

You guys are badly misinterpreting the story.

They didn't JUST refuse her claim to the Throne. Jon Snow refused her claim to the Throne too.

They wiped out her ally lol. And they committed treason as they were sworn to House Tyrell. It's war, people.

Randyll btw was more than an asshole. Randyll disinherited Sam and gave him a "Go to the Wall or I'll have you murdered" choice all because Sam, his son, didn't like to fight with swords.

Like, you're arguing she'll kill anyone who gets in her way and yet she JUST left King's Landing and the Throne, which she could have taken rather easily, to go North and fight. I mean......................................there was the Throne. And she didn't take it.

For someone so power hungry, that's not very power hungry.

 

[Rich]

Douche-face trumps crying family.

Another difference - Jon seemed genuinely pained by that decision. Danaerys seemed to relish exercising her power, and killing them horribly with dragonfire.

How pained did Jon Snow look when he beheaded Janos Slynt because he refused to go lead the builders at so and so castle?

Who committed the greater crime, on the whole? Randyll Tarly or Janos Slynt?

Like...the proposition for her to be power hungry was there last season. It was RIGHT THERE. There was the Throne. There was Cersei. She had defeated them in the field of battle. All she had to do was take it.

And she turned away.

That was the test. They aren't gonna keep picking at that same thread.

The Mad King was about to use Wild Fire to blow the city half to hell. Bran kept seeing visions of the Mad King screaming "Burn Them All" followed by wildfire flowing underneath the city.

We find out in s6 it's Cersei who completes the arc. Not Daenerys. Cersei is the mad Queen. We aren't gonna get a 2nd one here at the very ass end of the story.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Really?

Because I have to say, I think one should be more reluctant to execute a child than a prisoner of war.

I mean if we're gonna apply our modern moral standards and give these men Geneva convention rights, then where in a first world country is it ok to execute a 12 year old boy, no matter his crime?

But it's not about the Geneva Conventions or modern moral standards. It's about Westerosi morality. And in that world, kids grow up sooner, and if you take a man's action, you get a man's punishment. There is only one prescribed punishment for breaking your vows, and it is death. And frankly, Ollie actually committed murder. He stabbed Jon in the heart. The Code under which all of them operated prescribed death.

There was no code requiring Danaerys to burn those two men alive with Dragonfire, and no reason they couldn't have been kept as prisoners. Plenty others had been.

I mean didn't Tyrion threaten Slynt with the same thing? Go to the Wall or I'm going to have you killed.

Slynt was a murderous, betraying S.O.B who killed innocent children, including a baby, betrayed the lawful Hand of the Kind, and murdered his men as well. If anything, Slynt deserved to be strung up then and there.

 

[godfather]

Olly also killed Ygritte (his girlfriend). Olly was a killer.

This fucker puts the dagger in his heart. His "I'm just a boy" card no longer existed. Just like kids his age that commit murder, usually get charged as an adult.

He was playing a man's game. And rightfully was executed, like a man would be.

I don't think we should feel that horrified what Jon did. Tough decision? Sure, but not one to feel horrified over.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

They wiped out her ally lol. And they committed treason as they were sworn to House Tyrell. It's war, people.

That isn't what happened during the Robert's Rebellion, when many lords were torn between vows to their King, and vows to their Lord. We don't see the massacre of prisoners as being acceptable really anywhere in Westerosi wars. If you're right, and that's just the way things are in Westeros...why was Tyrion arguing so forcefully against it? Why did Varys castigate Tyrion for not being able to restrain her, and Tyrion looking embarassed that he couldn't. Why does even Jon looked shocked when she did that? And not just killing them, but burning them alive.

Those weren't slavers. They were basically ordinarily Westerosi lords who happened to be on the losing side of a battle, and were actually defending their homeland against an army consisting of foreign troops. Burning them alive because they wouldn't kneel to you while their Queen was still on her throne was...messed up.

For someone so power hungry, that's not very power hungry.

She has said, repeatedly, that she is the only rightful Queen, will insist on every other lord swearing fealty to her. And she has clearly demonstrated that she's willing to kill as many Westerosi soldiers as necessary to achieve that.

How is that not being power hungry?

 

[Rich]

Olly also killed Ygritte (his girlfriend). Olly was a killer.

This fucker puts the dagger in his heart. His "I'm just a boy" card no longer existed. Just like kids his age that commit murder, usually get charged as an adult.

He was playing a man's game. And rightfully was executed, like a man would be.

I don't think we should feel that horrified what Jon did. Tough decision? Sure, but not one to feel horrified over.

Motherfucking Ygritte was in battle and his enemy. She was killing his brothers in arms. And was part of the damn raiding party that killed his family. And I'm supposed to feel sorry for Ygritte? This is a new one.

As for trying children as adults, that is allowed.

What isn't allowed is executing said children. The Supreme Court has said so. Though this is getting in the weeds of the discussion.

 

[Rich]

That isn't what happened during the Robert's Rebellion, when many lords were torn between vows to their King, and vows to their Lord. We don't see the massacre of prisoners as being acceptable really anywhere in Westerosi wars. If you're right, and that's just the way things are in Westeros...why was Tyrion arguing so forcefully against it? Why did Varys castigate Tyrion for not being able to restrain her, and Tyrion looking embarassed that he couldn't. Why does even Jon looked shocked when she did that? And not just killing them, but burning them alive.

Those weren't slavers. They were basically ordinarily Westerosi lords who happened to be on the losing side of a battle, and were actually defending their homeland against an army consisting of foreign troops. Burning them alive because they wouldn't kneel to you while their Queen was still on her throne was...messed up.



She has said, repeatedly, that she is the only rightful Queen, will insist on every other lord swearing fealty to her. And she has clearly demonstrated that she's willing to kill as many Westerosi soldiers as necessary to achieve that.

How is that not being power hungry?

My man, when you have allies and someone goes and wipes out your allies not once, but TWICE (remember Euron wiped out the Grejoy/Dornish fleet), are you telling me she's power hungry for "killing westorosi soldiers" AFTER THEY KILLED HER FORCES FIRST? You can't honestly believe that.



I'll give you an example of someone executing a prisoner of war, prior to a trial, in a far harsher manner than dragonfire.

Sansa Stark feeding Ramsay to his dogs.

Ramsay had no trial. Ramsay was a wartime captive.


Just answer this question: If the Throne was her primary objective, if that's all she cared about, why the fuck is she in the North. Why did she go save Jon Snow and his band of merry idiots? She didn't have to fly there. And lose a dragon. Does she get ANY credit for that?

And mind you, she swore to go North and defeat the Army BEFORE Jon swore fealty.

Back to the Tarly's. That was not their queen until about 8 minutes prior when Randyll decided to betray House Tyrell. Their queen was Margaery Tyrell who was murdered, totally and completely unjustly, by Cersei Lannister. ALong with almost the entire rest of House Tyrell.

And Randyll said "Nah, you know what, fuck House Tyrell I'm joining the Lannisters."

That's.....treason. Like no matter how you slice it up. The Lannisters openly made war with House Tyrell and Randyll Tarly turned his back on them.


Yes, she wants the Throne. So did Stannis and Renly and Littlefinger and a whole host of other people.

She freed slaves across the sea. Stayed in Mereen. to try and keep said slaves from being re-enslaved.

She shouldn't have burned Dickon. But fuck Randyll Tarly. He threatened to murder his own son and sentenced him to a life at the wall. He can go get bent.

EDIT: More examples: How about the Mountain raping and killing Elia and her children and Robert PARDONING him for it? Now the Mountain is clearly evil...but what does that make Robert? A totally innocent wife and two tiny, small children. Doesn't even compare to soldiers captured in battle, does it? Yet Robert, essentially, gave the ok to the practice.

DOUBLE EDIT: BTW Jon did not execute Janos Slynt because of all of that other shit he did. He executed him because he wouldn't go to Greywatch Tower (I think). ANd he had that "I'm a badass" face while doing it.

So differentiate it for me. Because the Tarlys were also given a choice to go to the Wall. People keep forgetting that. It was proposed and they refused.

 

[godfather]

Motherfucking Ygritte was in battle and his enemy. She was killing his brothers in arms. And was part of the damn raiding party that killed his family. And I'm supposed to feel sorry for Ygritte? This is a new one.

As for trying children as adults, that is allowed.

What isn't allowed is executing said children. The Supreme Court has said so. Though this is getting in the weeds of the discussion.

And Jon understood that and never said boo about it. Even though a part of him was probably eaten up over it. Right or wrong, it'd bother anyone.

But Olly is willing to kill Jon, just because he's letting in the wildlings. Even though Jon treated this little mopey piece of shit well.

Olly lost any kind of empathy after that. He was dangerous. He wasn't some innocent boy like Rickon. Dude was a killer. And would have plotted to kill Jon again.

 

[Rich]

And Jon understood that and never said boo about it. Even though a part of him was probably eaten up over it. Right or wrong, it'd bother anyone.

But Olly is willing to kill Jon, just because he's letting in the wildlings. Even though Jon treated this little mopey piece of shit well.

Olly lost any kind of empathy after that. He was dangerous. He wasn't some innocent boy like Rickon. Dude was a killer. And would have plotted to kill Jon again.

You're missing my primary argument.

I don't feel sympathy for Olly, though I do think it probably an immoral choice to execute a child.

Likewise, I don't feel sympathy for the Tarlys. You're sworn to House Tyrell and you willfully betray them. You can't be shocked if, when you lose a battle, you die for it. And Randyll Tarly is a less sympathetic figure than Olly.

The whole point of Dickon Tarly being added was to try and make you feel sympathy and that Dany might have made a poor choice. It's the SAME reason they added Olly. I don't know if you've read the books, but if you haven't, there is no Olly. There is no small boy who helps kill Jon Snow. They threw him in to try and make the audience feel a little icky about what Jon was doing. Jon feels icky about it himself. He says so to Sansa.


I'm not gonna keep going back and forth on this I guess I'm surprised at how many people still think there's a chance Mad Queen Dany happens. They just gave you an entire episode of her and Jon making out and flying dragons and laughing and giggling and Davos proposing marriage and...........it's not gonna happen gang. She freed slaves and overthrew the Masters and stands opposed to the biggest human villain in the show and has went North to help fight the ultimate villain of the entire series and...I dunno man. She's....a hero. Albeit not a perfect one. There's no Clark Kent in this story.

 

[godfather]

You're missing my primary argument.

I don't feel sympathy for Olly, though I do think it probably an immoral choice to execute a child.

Likewise, I don't feel sympathy for the Tarlys. You're sworn to House Tyrell and you willfully betray them. You can't be shocked if, when you lose a battle, you die for it. And Randyll Tarly is a less sympathetic figure than Olly.

I don't feel bad for either of them. I only feel sympathy for Sam. Sam is a good guy. Hearing his brother and father were burned alive, well, would suck, no?

I hated his father. The guy was a fucking asshole. I didn't really know or care about his brother outside Bronn laughing at his name. Dickon's only truly great moment on the show.