The Ongoing Attendance Problem

[Steve_424]

I've said it like 3-4 times already, but I have way more of a beef with Shapiro and Antonetti than I do the Dolans. They're the luckiest front office guys in Cleveland. They put out a shitty roster and everyone blames the Dolans for not spending, not the fact that they tie up what money they do have in shitty players like Kerry Wood.

Holmgren brings in a really solid GM in Heckert, who has nothing but success in the draft, and people call for their heads after a year or 2 because we haven't been good. Shapiro has been sucking for a long time and his ass gets promoted.

Shapiro/Antonetti have had great success in the trade market. In effect, they have dealt (and remember, Sabathia and Lee were not realistically staying here):

Bartolo Colon, Mark DeRosa, Ben Broussard, Eduardo Perez, Drew Pomeranz, Alex White, Casey Blake, Cliff Lee, C.C. Sabathia, Victor Martinez

FOR

Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee, Chirs Perez, Shin Soo Choo, Asdrubal Cabrera, Ubaldo Jimenez, Carlos Santana, Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald, Lou Marson, Jason Knapp, Matt LaPorta, Michael Brantley, Justin Masterson, Nick Hagadone

The main issue was the guys they gave extensions to - Sizemore, Hafner, and Westbrook - all considered good moves by most at the time - were busts due to injury, and, until recently, poor drafting.

Considering the lack of financial flexibility, I think they've done a pretty good job.

 

[Shakalu M.D.]

Shapiro/Antonetti have had great success in the trade market. In effect, they have dealt (and remember, Sabathia and Lee were not realistically staying here):

Bartolo Colon, Mark DeRosa, Ben Broussard, Eduardo Perez, Drew Pomeranz, Alex White, Casey Blake, Cliff Lee, C.C. Sabathia, Victor Martinez

FOR

Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee, Chirs Perez, Shin Soo Choo, Asdrubal Cabrera, Ubaldo Jimenez, Carlos Santana, Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald, Lou Marson, Jason Knapp, Matt LaPorta, Michael Brantley, Justin Masterson, Nick Hagadone

The main issue was the guys they gave extensions to - Sizemore, Hafner, and Westbrook - all considered good moves by most at the time - were busts due to injury, and, until recently, poor drafting.

Considering the lack of financial flexibility, I think they've done a pretty good job.

I do give them credit for good trades, those have been very impressive. But poor contract decisions and bad drafting is more of a problem than making a few good trades could fix. I know C.C. was leaving, but I'm still pissed at that trade. What'd we get, Brantley? I know LaPorta was the centerpiece of that trade, but boy does he suck.

Our drafting has been piss poor, except for this last year where by all accounts this Lindor kid looks to be special. I understand resigning Grady, nobody expected him to have the injury issues that he has had, especially after he went so long in his career without ever missing a game. But I knew we were putting too many years and too much money into Hafner. Same goes with Westbrook. I wanted nothing to do with Kerry Wood and hated that deal.

Just about the only thing these guys have done well are make trades, and even then, that seems to be a lot of luck as their trades haven't been nearly as good as of late. (See LaPorta, Matt).

 

[MoFlo]

I've said it like 3-4 times already, but I have way more of a beef with Shapiro and Antonetti than I do the Dolans. They're the luckiest front office guys in Cleveland.

Let's not forget that Shapiro/Antonetti have to go on scouts' opinions on potential draftees. They're not out there scouting every prospect. Since they've restructured the scouting department & put more $ towards spending in the draft, the drafting has been better.

I agree with Jigo though, that's what the problem has been in the recent past. Though it does look a lot better (obviously the jury is still far from out on that..) more recently.

In a small market, where you know you'll lose your superstars/all-stars, you have to be able to draft well consistently to replace those guys.

 

[MoFlo]

I do give them credit for good trades, those have been very impressive. But poor contract decisions and bad drafting is more of a problem than making a few good trades could fix. I know C.C. was leaving, but I'm still pissed at that trade. What'd we get, Brantley? I know LaPorta was the centerpiece of that trade, but boy does he suck.

Our drafting has been piss poor, except for this last year where by all accounts this Lindor kid looks to be special. I understand resigning Grady, nobody expected him to have the injury issues that he has had, especially after he went so long in his career without ever missing a game. But I knew we were putting too many years and too much money into Hafner. Same goes with Westbrook. I wanted nothing to do with Kerry Wood and hated that deal.

Just about the only thing these guys have done well are make trades, and even then, that seems to be a lot of luck as their trades haven't been nearly as good as of late. (See LaPorta, Matt).

My theory:

They disappoint in the big name trades because teams know we have to get rid of them, or they'll walk and we'll get nothing. We don't have the advantage in those trades like we do in the Casey Blake (Santana), Ben Broussard (Choo), Eduardo Perez (A-Cab), etc trades.

 

[Real Deal]

First of all, I'm not your enemy, so stop acting like a dick.

Second, none of the players bring in the bandwagon fan. Players who hit for power are what bring people to the game in Cleveland. Otherwise, to most, the game is simply boring.

I don't agree with it, but that's what I think the problem is. People are not entertained by the game of baseball in Cleveland.

Sadly, I agree. I wish it was different.

 

[AZ_]

You think anyone outside of Cleveland gives a shit about Santana? He's been underwhelming at best. I usually agree with your posts, especially about the Browns, but you're in rare douchetastic form today. Also last I checked none of those guys were on the team anymore. It's not about having random seasons with success, most fans expect the team to fall of a cliff because we haven't had any consistancy. We'll have a 90 win season, then go downhill and trade away all of our players. The Indians rebuild every 3 years or so, and a lot of the time they have to start after having no real success during their competing years. I realize that is more a symptom of the sport than it is of ownership, but that's why fans lose interest.

I understand your market interest argument, and I'm one of the few who has no real problem with the Dolans other than their poor communication with the fans, but I guarantee you attendance would shoot up if this team strung a couple of seasons of success together. I'm not saying we'd sell out, I agree we will never replicate the perfect storm that lead to the attendance in the 90s, but it's tough to draw a crowd when you suck and everyone expects your good players to be gone in a year or 2.

No, CC and Lee and Victor aren't on the team anymore.

And while Santana is a future star:...that won't matter either.

CC is exactly the type of star people are talking about...and while he was here he was just another guy.

 

[mofire]

While you can not judge attendance and fan support based on one great year out of 10 it does raise a question why attendance was low in 2007. I think it has something to do with a mentality of show me something more then just one year of getting into the playoffs out of 10. The fact is Cleveland is Browns town and that will never change, but if a team like the Indians can consistently win year in and year out like the cavs did with Lebron you will see more people who start to believe and would want to go to the games and spend their hard earned money to be entertained and watch some good baseball. The problem with this team is they did not do anything in the offseason to get the fan base excited enough to rally around this team. Yes the Ubaldo trade was a great move, but the fans are looking for something that they believe could put this team over the top like a really good hitter who will come in and give us 20 plus homers and close to 100 RBI's in a season.

 

[Damage]

People, especially younger people, just have a declining interest in the sport.

Preach buddy. This was the face I made once I saw it went 16 innings.

Stayed in Tremont instead. Glad I did. I still go to about 10 games/year, but it's not like it use to be...and until Mr. Bud Selik hangs em up and economies of scale are created, it's only going to get worse.

Plus, people always gravitate to the outsider, the 3rd brother (The Cavs). Especially when 3rd brother has grown up & has hundreds of millions at his disposal...and a franchise PG

 

[Damage]

The main issue was the guys they gave extensions to - Sizemore, Hafner, and Westbrook - all considered good moves by most at the time - were busts due to injury, and, until recently, poor drafting.

Injuries should never, ever count towards someone being a bust. At least it doesn't in my book. They were the absolute right moves to make...and we got snakebit. Not 1, not 2, but all 3 of the guys we finally decide to extend get hurt? What are the fucking odds?

Speaking of which, time to lock up Santana for as long as you can

 

[Chris]

rofl, love the avatar Damage.

 

[Nom]

I'll say this -

I get fans' frustration. I can defend most of the moves the FO has made - but they haven worked out. You don't sell out the park with die-hards, you sell it out with casual fans who don't care that signing Lee or CC were the wrong moves.

That said, this city constantly brags about its loyal, die-hard fans. Saying attendance MAY pick up of the team wins MULTIPLE years in a row is more or less the definition of fair weather fans.

So I think the FO kinda sucks and the fans kinda suck - and I don't think those are related as everyone thinks (Dolans use attendance as excuse and fans use losing as an excuse when improvements in either probably wouldn't change much).

 

[Chris]

I'll say this -

I get fans' frustration. I can defend most of the moves the FO has made - but they haven worked out. You don't sell out the park with die-hards, you sell it out with casual fans who don't care that signing Lee or CC were the wrong moves.

That said, this city constantly brags about its loyal, die-hard fans. Saying attendance MAY pick up of the team wins MULTIPLE years in a row is more or less the definition of fair weather fans.

So I think the FO kinda sucks and the fans kinda suck - and I don't think those are related as everyone thinks (Dolans use attendance as excuse and fans use losing as an excuse when improvements in either probably wouldn't change much).

It is fair weather, but with 3 sports teams in a dying town, it's hard to expect anything else. Plus after the shit the fans have gone through, I don't blame them for deciding to be fair weather.

 

[7foot3]

I also think Indians fans are more loyal than given credit for, but it's hard to drag yourself out to watch shitty baseball when it costs 10 bucks for a beer.
In a bad economy if you have a shitty product people won't show up. Even if we sucked but were fun to watch people would come. But we suck, we lose, and we get like 2 hits a game. That's just not fun.

And yet, this really isn't a problem for the Browns. Cleveland isn't a baseball town. Without a new stadium and a division that rolls over as long as you put out an 86 win team, fans are not going to get excited. Also, it really hurts that the number of Fortune 500 companies in town are about 1/3 of what they were 20 years ago. You could always count on local big businesses to gobble up tickets, but not so much anymore.

 

[Huber.]

And yet, this really isn't a problem for the Browns. Cleveland isn't a baseball town. Without a new stadium and a division that rolls over as long as you put out an 86 win team, fans are not going to get excited. Also, it really hurts that the number of Fortune 500 companies in town are about 1/3 of what they were 20 years ago. You could always count on local big businesses to gobble up tickets, but not so much anymore.

It's starting to become a problem with the Browns since they only fill up 90% of the stadium. 10 more years of the Browns and nobody will show up. Anyone under the age of 30 doesn't remember the Browns being watchable.

 

[The Oi]

Saying attendance MAY pick up of the team wins MULTIPLE years in a row is more or less the definition of fair weather fans.

If you suck for ten years, with one exception in the middle...your fans are going to appear to be fairweather. No-one will or should put up with that kind of bullshit for 10 years.

Why waste your money on a losing product? Fair-weather fans is a term that should have to be wiped off the map when a team sucks for 5 years at a time. When a team sucks- with no signs of improving- for five straight years, you should call those people, "smart."

Fair-weather fans is something that should be applied to Cavs fans that quit on the team every 5-6 games if they have a shitty streak here and there. Cavs suck for two years but show a ton of promise and start winning games? If you jump off the bandwagon because they get blown out by the Heat or because they lose a bunch of close ones to shitty teams...you're a fair-weather fan.

That term should apply to guys who stop rooting for a team because they choke in the playoffs.

You quit rooting for the Indians after Mesa choked it away but still had promise the next year? That's a fair-weather fan. You quit rooting for the Browns after The Drive even though the team was still expected to be good a few more years? That's a fairweather fan.

Fairweather fans are the ones that can't handle the stress that comes along with heartbreaking losses. People who quit rooting for a team when they put up shit offense for 10 years and lose all their best players to trades and free agency (yes, I understand why those moves had to happen) are just smart.

What's the point of spending money on a team that can't draft it's own players and hits on about 1/4 of it's trades? Yeah, I guess you can go to the park and have a couple over-priced beers and some of the best mustard on the planet and just try to ignore the product on the field.

But when you can drink the same beer at home for $9 less and order the mustard online and flip between that game and the movie 300 with a bunch of friends at home while your wife makes pizza dip and nachos...the choice is obvious.