To Tank or not to Tank, that is the question

[KI4MVP]

Unselected lottery picks sure get way overvalued. Last year Toronto was a lottery team and they got Terrence Ross. Is anyone here trading Andy for Terrence Ross? Somehow their lottery pick next year is valued quite a bit higher than they guy they got with their lottery pick this past season. You can't tell how well a player will transition into the NBA until they get here. The fact is it often takes several years to figure it out. We know we already landed a star PG on our first try. We really can't afford to waste years of his career drafting players we hope pan out.

 

[Kizzle]

iv already went on record if that pick is top 3 im sending Andy packing. We could get n the top 3 with ours and you cant pass up 2 picks in the top 3

 

[Young Blood]

Unselected lottery picks sure get way overvalued. Last year Toronto was a lottery team and they got Terrence Ross. Is anyone here trading Andy for Terrence Ross? Somehow their lottery pick next year is valued quite a bit higher than they guy they got with their lottery pick this past season. You can't tell how well a player will transition into the NBA until they get here. The fact is it often takes several years to figure it out. We know we already landed a star PG on our first try. We really can't afford to waste years of his career drafting players we hope pan out.

So we would have taken the same player the Raptors took? That's not how it works. Maybe we would have taken Drummond? I'm sure there are people who would trade Andy for Drummond. Obviously it is all based on potential and how good you think a player is going to be as a pro. But the draft is one of the few ways a team can improve and add quality young talent.

And let's not pretend that we're wasting years of Kyrie's career. He still needs to develop and improve particularly on the defensive end. And, oh yeah, he is in his second year in the NBA and is 20 years old.

My stance on the issue of trading Andy is to trade him only if a great deal comes along. I think many people agree with that premise. Obviously trading Andy would also help the tank which I guess is why all this talk is in this thread instead of one of the multiple Anderson Varejao threads?

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

iv already went on record if that pick is top 3 im sending Andy packing. We could get n the top 3 with ours and you cant pass up 2 picks in the top 3

It's a lottery. Noone knows if it will be in the top 3. And many teams won't agree to that anyways. Most teams would top 3, at least, protect it.

 

[jlegg21]

Unselected lottery picks sure get way overvalued. Last year Toronto was a lottery team and they got Terrence Ross. Is anyone here trading Andy for Terrence Ross? Somehow their lottery pick next year is valued quite a bit higher than they guy they got with their lottery pick this past season. You can't tell how well a player will transition into the NBA until they get here. The fact is it often takes several years to figure it out. We know we already landed a star PG on our first try. We really can't afford to waste years of his career drafting players we hope pan out.

Yeah, so we're officially to the point where the keep Andy camp will say anything. Oohh look, a Terrance Ross analogy. Bless your heart.

As it's been outlined on this site numerous times, the Cavs have an all-world PG, a promising SG, and a 30 year old PF playing the best basketball of his life. The rest is a big ol question mark, which is why our record is fucking putrid. This team needs at least two more impact players, and preferably one of them to be a bona-fide superstar.

If you have an idea outside the draft to get us those two players (and a bench that resembles NBA quality), I'd love to hear it. I have a prediction - it'll either be a ridiculous trade that'll never happen, or some vague reasoning for why a mega star FA will come to play in Cleveland to play with Kyrie even thought that will never EVER happen for a variety of reasons.

The vision will never come together with short-term fixes and short-sighted management. That only works in big markets like LA or Boston, where All-NBA players are gifted to them ever few years. This is Cleveland. It's draft or bust here, which is why we desperately need to tank again this year. Wake up.

 

[KI4MVP]

The point is it is hard to draft a guy as good as Andy, even in the lottery. How many guys other than Davis taken before the raptors pick would you trade Andy for based on how Andy is playing now?

The point is you have more predictable results with established nba players. Another point is veterans can help accelerate the development of the younger players we have already. There is a reason we went into a draft with 4 picks already planning to only pick two players. We have 4 young players to develop. We are losing because they are surrounded by too many other unproven players.

Trading our best veteran to start with yet another new guy next year only creates more question marks.

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

Yeah, so we're officially to the point where the keep Andy camp will say anything. Oohh look, a Terrance Ross analogy. Bless your heart.

As it's been outlined on this site numerous times, the Cavs have an all-world PG, a promising SG, and a 30 year old PF playing the best basketball of his life. The rest is a big ol question mark, which is why our record is fucking putrid. This team needs at least two more impact players, and preferably one of them to be a bona-fide superstar.

If you have an idea outside the draft to get us those two players (and a bench that resembles NBA quality), I'd love to hear it. I have a prediction - it'll either be a ridiculous trade that'll never happen, or some vague reasoning for why a mega star FA will come to play in Cleveland to play with Kyrie even thought that will never EVER happen for a variety of reasons.

The vision will never come together with short-term fixes and short-sighted management. That only works in big markets like LA or Boston, where All-NBA players are gifted to them ever few years. This is Cleveland. It's draft or bust here, which is why we desperately need to tank again this year. Wake up.

I've detailed this before. It's not easy, it's a bit risky, and it takes foresight, but there is ways beyond the the whole draft or bust mentality that permeates this board like a fn roadkill skunk. Guys come along that fit very well in what this team is trying to do. The most recent example was Nic Batum. I'm not saying he will be the only guy, but he's an example of the kind of player this FO needs to sack up and jump after when they come up for contract. There has to be a combination of risk taking and projection.

In this most recent lapse, we let Batum walk right by us. You kill numerous birds with one stone here and it doesn't break us by any means. We keep Andy, get a legit top 10 SF(eliminating our biggest need) that fits perfectly in our system, strenghten our bench, add a young guy to our core, and eliminate the need to waste our time and money on guys like CJ Miles. While 95% of the NBA universe thought Kahn was being an idiot with his offer, he's proving to be just a tad more with it than most, as Batum is proving he still had a bunch of upside in his tank. This is the kind of mentality we need here.

Getting the 10th pick in a weak draft is not what this team needs. We don't need Tristan Thompson's reincarnate SF clone. I can't even imagine the stones that get thrown around here if Andy were to be traded for another "raw project guy" because, frankly, it was yet another weak draft class. There's no Kevin Durant out there. No LBJ. So, wtf exactly are we hoping for then? Even the people who think trading Andy for a lottery pick is good enough are being somewhat short sighted. What good is a lottery pick in a weak draft? Is it worth one of the most sought after guys in the league? Cuz I'm not seeing this big time, superstar game changer out there that some of you like to refer to.

 

[jlegg21]

The point is it is hard to draft a guy as good as Andy, even in the lottery. How many guys other than Davis taken before the raptors pick would you trade Andy for based on how Andy is playing now?

The point is you have more predictable results with established nba players. Another point is veterans can help accelerate the development of the younger players we have already. There is a reason we went into a draft with 4 picks already planning to only pick two players. We have 4 young players to develop. We are losing because they are surrounded by too many other unproven players.

Trading our best veteran to start with yet another new guy next year only creates more question marks.

Fine, by and large proven vets are a more stable option that a pick in a random lottery. Makes some sense.

You know what else is predictable? Bigs declining and/or getting injured in their 30s. Long list of big guys missing major amounts of time, due to the rigors and pounding and all that running wears out knees and ankles, etc. Also, this is clearly the peak of Andy's upside. Not sure he can play any better unless he adds 3 point range, and yet we're still losing to the Suns and Pistons.

We're coming to a point very soon where it's time to decide, assuming we can actually find a team willing to part with their lottery pick, do we want to have Andy for a max 2 more years at a reasonable salary (after which he either walks or we completely overpay him at age 33), or draft a kid (hopefully like Noel or Len) to take his place for multiple years on a rookie salary and hope they become stars?

I would argue there's actually more risk in rolling the dice that Andy can keep up this production and health. Either way, only teams that take risks will win big. Unless you're in a big market and have scum like Pat Riley recruiting for you.

 

[jlegg21]

I've detailed this before. It's not easy, it's a bit risky, and it takes foresight, but there is ways beyond the the whole draft or bust mentality that permeates this board like a fn roadkill skunk. Guys come along that fit very well in what this team is trying to do. The most recent example was Nic Batum. I'm not saying he will be the only guy, but he's an example of the kind of player this FO needs to sack up and jump after when they come up for contract. There has to be a combination of risk taking and projection.

In this most recent lapse, we let Batum walk right by us. You kill numerous birds with one stone here and it doesn't break us by any means. We keep Andy, get a legit top 10 SF(eliminating our biggest need) that fits perfectly in our system, strenghten our bench, add a young guy to our core, and eliminate the need to waste our time and money on guys like CJ Miles. While 95% of the NBA universe thought Kahn was being an idiot with his offer, he's proving to be just a tad more with it than most, as Batum is proving he still had a bunch of upside in his tank. This is the kind of mentality we need here.

Getting the 10th pick in a weak draft is not what this team needs. We don't need Tristan Thompson's reincarnate SF clone. I can't even imagine the stones that get thrown around here if Andy were to be traded for another "raw project guy" because, frankly, it was yet another weak draft class. There's no Kevin Durant out there. No LBJ. So, wtf exactly are we hoping for then? Even the people who think trading Andy for a lottery pick is good enough are being somewhat short sighted. What good is a lottery pick in a weak draft? Is it worth one of the most sought after guys in the league? Cuz I'm not seeing this big time, superstar game changer out there that some of you like to refer to.

Batum huh? That would have been a colossal mistake, and that's assuming he would have even considered coming here, which isnt likely. Throwing the max at guys who arent worth the max is the worst thing a team like the Cavs can do.

Free Agency might as well be a non-factor for teams like the Cavs. Just a fact. The sooner you accept it, the better off you'll be.

Now, concerning 2014... I'm starting to believe all bets are off at that point.

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

Batum huh? That would have been a colossal mistake, and that's assuming he would have even considered coming here, which isnt likely. Throwing the max at guys who arent worth the max is the worst thing a team like the Cavs can do.

Free Agency might as well be a non-factor for teams like the Cavs. Just a fact. The sooner you accept it, the better off you'll be.

Now, concerning 2014... I'm starting to believe all bets are off at that point.

Who said max? He didn't sign for max. Noone ever offered him max.

Colossal mistake? Really? Based on what?

 

[jlegg21]

Who said max? He didn't sign for max. Noone ever offered him max.

Damn, you're right. I beg your pardon... 4 years, 46 mil is dirt cheap for an average SF who'll never make an All-Star team. Sure looked like he was worth every penny the other night, brickin dunks n shit.

Besides, it's not like it would take the max to get him to Cleveland, right? Or would he take a bargain price to play in Cleveland on a lottery team? Rumor has it he turned down $52 mil, so... yeah.

This argument is ridiculous. Dont refute my points, just refute the number I threw out there. Brilliant.

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

Damn, you're right. I beg your pardon... 4 years, 46 mil is dirt cheap for an average SF who'll never make an All-Star team. Sure looked like he was worth every penny the other night, brickin dunks n shit.

Besides, it's not like it would take the max to get him to Cleveland, right? Or would he take a bargain price to play in Cleveland on a lottery team? Rumor has it he turned down $52 mil, so... yeah.

This argument is ridiculous. Dont refute my points, just refute the number I threw out there. Brilliant.

Refute what? Your exagerrated innuendo and rumor based "facts":chuckles: You heard he turned down 52mil? They let you do stand up all the time on message boards?

Brickin dunks n shit? Ya, and hittin ridiculous game winners n shit too. Guys who play the worst half of basketball of their season and then go on to miss one game winner by a tenth of a sec and then nail another one sure would suck.

The only thing factual about your post is the contract he signed. Besides that, you like to play soap opera rumor guy, Nostradamus, and comic all in one. Forgive me oh Genie in the bottle for not refuting what amounts to a pile of dung.

Dude can absolutely ball, play great defense, is clutch....but, hey, since you know he won't be making any AS games at the ripe age of not quite 24, I'll just go back to trying to learn how to build a winner courtesy of jlegg21. Insight at its finest.

 

[ice cream man]

Refute what? Your exagerrated innuendo and rumor based "facts":chuckles: You heard he turned down 52mil? They let you do stand up all the time on message boards?

Brickin dunks n shit? Ya, and hittin ridiculous game winners n shit too. Guys who play the worst half of basketball of their season and then go on to miss one game winner by a tenth of a sec and then nail another one sure would suck.

The only thing factual about your post is the contract he signed. Besides that, you like to play soap opera rumor guy, Nostradamus, and comic all in one. Forgive me oh Genie in the bottle for not refuting what amounts to a pile of dung.

Dude can absolutely ball, play great defense, is clutch....but, hey, since you know he won't be making any AS games at the ripe age of not quite 24, I'll just go back to trying to learn how to build a winner courtesy of jlegg21. Insight at its finest.

He's got talent, but he's soft. They paid him partially based on his potential. He could grow out of that and become as good as Rudy Gay (side note: Gay is overrated IMO). But right now, he's about as soft as Gay, if not, softer. Gee roughed him up so much he had him dribbling it off his foot, missing open dunks when he finally did escape from Gee on the fastbreak. The only thing he did in the 2nd half was hit open 3's. No one is saying he can't shoot.

 

[The Process God]

Only ~10 not 15 by your math if players are useless after 30.

Please quote where I said players are useless after 30. I said players usually start declining after 32. That doesn't mean that they're useless after 32, but they're surely not as good as when they're in their upper 20s unless they're Steve Nash or Dennis Rodman.

Unselected lottery picks sure get way overvalued. Last year Toronto was a lottery team and they got Terrence Ross. Is anyone here trading Andy for Terrence Ross? Somehow their lottery pick next year is valued quite a bit higher than they guy they got with their lottery pick this past season. You can't tell how well a player will transition into the NBA until they get here. The fact is it often takes several years to figure it out. We know we already landed a star PG on our first try. We really can't afford to waste years of his career drafting players we hope pan out.

Kyrie Irving was practically handed to us because the Clippers undervalued their lottery pick. Now imagine where we would be if we didn't make that trade. We'd be sitting here with only Tristan Thompson. What a utterly insufferable existence in which we would exist.

 

[jlegg21]

Refute what? Your exagerrated innuendo and rumor based "facts":chuckles: You heard he turned down 52mil? They let you do stand up all the time on message boards?

Brickin dunks n shit? Ya, and hittin ridiculous game winners n shit too. Guys who play the worst half of basketball of their season and then go on to miss one game winner by a tenth of a sec and then nail another one sure would suck.

The only thing factual about your post is the contract he signed. Besides that, you like to play soap opera rumor guy, Nostradamus, and comic all in one. Forgive me oh Genie in the bottle for not refuting what amounts to a pile of dung.

Dude can absolutely ball, play great defense, is clutch....but, hey, since you know he won't be making any AS games at the ripe age of not quite 24, I'll just go back to trying to learn how to build a winner courtesy of jlegg21. Insight at its finest.

You sound ridiculous, but keep it up. Here's a quote and a link to get you started. Who am I to claim this did or didnt happen? I'm really not making this shit up as I go, but whatever.

A vicious tug of war between the Portland Trail Blazers and the Minnesota Timberwolves this summer for the services of Nicolas Batum ultimately kept the fifth year forward from France in the Rose City. Batum expressed interest in playing for the Timberwolves but the Blazers matched his four year, $48 million dollar offer sheet.

Though Batum got the contract he desired, it may not have been the largest offer. The Cleveland Cavaliers reportedly offered Batum $52 million to join their squad. The Timberwovles, Cavaliers, New Orleans Hornets and Toronto Raptors were the most aggressive suitors for Batum during his free agency.

http://cleveland.sbnation.com/2012/10/28/3568182/nic-batum-contract-cavaliers-free-agency-nba

Ill wait while you list the big time stars the Cavs are going to sign in FA or acquire in trades. Be sure to list past home runs we've hit with those two approaches. So far you've listed whiffing on Nic Batum as a mistake, and you evidently have him pegged as the next Scottie Pippen. Forgive me if I'm dubious.

I'm on the record, repeatedly, that the best way for the CAVS to build a winner is the draft, and you only get high picks by flipping assets and tanking. Not sure what's difficult to understand. Unless you're "smokn" too much.