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Welcome Shawn Marion #31

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Come on doug, you know better than to use unadjusted plus/minus stats, especially when dealing with a team that has so many holes defensively.

According to ESPN's plus/minus, Marion was the 21st best defender out of 75 SFs, which is about what you would expect for a defensive ace well past his prime. Realistically I expect a modest dropoff for him this season, but he should still be around league average on that end, at worst.

I'd also note that he played over thirty minutes a game last year, and that undoubtedly takes a toll on a guy his age who is asked to contribute on both ends of the floor. In Cleveland, he'll more than likely see a minutes reduction, somewhere in the range of 20-25 a game, and he'll barely be asked to contribute on offense at all, aside from shooting open jumpers, of course. Personally, I think Marion will see a production decrease due to being less of a factor, but he'll probably see an efficiency increase, which I expect from a lot of our guys.
 
4 time all star
top 40 all time offensive rebounds
top 40 in minutes played
top 25 all time in defensive rebounds
top 20 in steals
Top 40 in steals per game
51st in blocks
top 30 in turnover percentage.
top 80 all time in points scored
Starting Player on an NBA championship team.

the guy would of averaged a duble double for his career if he wasnt injured and sat out a year during his all star run. looks like a viable candidate down the road

You can safely pull minutes played and turnover percentage right out of the HOF discussion.
 
Who is better than the Cavaliers right now?

I'm guessing folks will say the Spurs... But most analysts don't even have them coming out of the West. I think time has to start taking a toll on Ginobili and Duncan, if not Tony Parker (who isn't that old). And yes, with the emergence of Kawhi they have another option at forward - but I strongly feel that the Cavaliers can best them in 7, if not 6.
I think some people are comparing the Cavs to the proverbial "ideal team", and overlooking the reality that every team has holes and areas in which they could improve.

The Cavs don't have an elite shot-blocker. But with the addition of James and Marion, and the reasonable expectation that KI, Waiters, and Delly could all show some defensive improvement, it is much less likely teams are going to be able to drive to the hole freely in the first place. Nor does it appear that any of the real title contenders have a true center who can hurt us too much offensively. Probably Noah is the best we'd face, but he's not a dominating offensive player.

The Spurs are still extremely good on paper, but I think the Cavs offense will put an awful lot of pressure on some older players. We should have outstanding ball movement and outside shooting, plus the ability to penetrate and a great low-post threat in Love and even LBJ. It is going to be exhausting for other teams to try to defend that, and I think the effort level required could really take a toll on an aging team. We're also a deep team that should be able to keep the pressure on even when our starter aren't all on the floor. Duncan can't last forever.

At least, I hope not.
 
My first question/thought is starting to be "I was happy just to make the Finals watching the Detroit series, that performance, am I going to be dissapointed like a MIA fan if they don't win the finals, Conference Championships are pretty cool." I hope we are satisfied at awesome basketball and don't boo like jackasses or dissapear if we lose in a game on home Court.

But Second. Do we stand a chance at being the greatest turnaround ever.

Third. PEOPLE. CONSIDER. We not only upgraded players. But we have perhaps a GREAT COACH. We will see. I think Spo is terrible. Outcoached 3x in the finals. Didn't "outcoach Scottie brooks". Was just OKC was too immature after beating an unstoppable spurs team thought they could take games off and still come back.

So consider the offseason, including David Blatt and Griffin. Maybe Lebron, Kyrie have a coach that takes even LBJ to the next level.

Otherwise are we going to be in this discussion? Awesome.
3. Boston (pro basketball)

2006-07: 24-58 (95.8 points per game / 99.2 points against per game)

2007-08: 66-16 (100.5 points per game / 90.3 points against per game)

There’s something about Boston and momentous bounce backs.

The Red Sox and Patriots have both pulled off all-timers, but neither of those holds a candle to what the Celtics did in 2007 after slogging through the NBA’s second-worst record.

That summer Boston pulled off trades for superstars Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett to completely reboot the team’s personality. These future Hall of Famers perfectly meshed with established All-Star Paul Pierce and emerging star Rajon Rondo to help Boston win 42 more games in 2007-08 and defeat the Lakers for the title.

2. Oakland (pro basketball)
Hall of Famer Ricky Barry's presence ignited this team.

Hall of Famer Ricky Barry’s presence ignited this team.

1967-68: 22-56 (110.8 points per game / 117.4 points against per game)

1968-69: 60-18 (126.5 points per game / 118.1 points against per game)

The Oakland Oaks, which existed 1967 through 1969 in the American Basketball Association, likely had the most Jekyll-and-Hyde existence in sports history. The franchise badly flopped in its first season while its recent superstar signee, Rick Barry, stayed on the bench because of a contract dispute with his former NBA team.

The next season was the franchise’s last in Oakland. The Oaks brought in a proven NBA coach, Alex Hannum, and instant contributors like Larry Brown and Doug Moe. Barry poured in more than 30 points per game, and when he went down with injury rookie Warren Jabali picked up the scoring slack. Oakland took the 1969 ABA championship, beating the Indiana Pacers 4-1
 
Probably not going to happen, considering what level we were at last year (mediocre). Those two team had historical basement to championship success. I mean, our best turnaround ever was the 31-51 record in 1991 to the 57-25 in '92 appearance in the NBA Conference Finals (25 game difference). They lost Price for most of the season then had Brandon back him up next year as a rookie. We comparatively had a 33-49 record. You realize to get that 35-38 difference in historical value, we'd need to win an equivalent to the '67 Sixers, the '73 Celtics, hell barely what we pulled off in '09. Those records don't grow on trees. For more comparisons, the Spurs had previously slogged through a painful dweller '97 with Robinson to get the #1 Duncan (a legend in the making) who was already basketball ready with 4 years of college. Additionally, the same for the '87 Spurs who finally got Robinson a year or so later. I think Bird's in the conversation as well as the '96 Bulls, who set the NBA record with 72 wins prior to the sub 50 win mark for only 20 win improvements.

Of course, math isn't 100% accurate, but let's just focus on being a normal playoff team first (mid-40s), then conference finals ready (mid-50s), then finals and championship worth (low to mid 60s), anything else is bonus. That includes getting a 30 win improvement (which can be possible) and then building for the next season IF we can show progress we need to (I'm paying close attention to this team, nothing is set in stone).
 
Probably not going to happen, considering what level we were at last year (mediocre). Those two team had historical basement to championship success. I mean, our best turnaround ever was the 31-51 record in 1991 to the 57-25 in '92 appearance in the NBA Conference Finals (25 game difference). They lost Price for most of the season then had Brandon back him up next year as a rookie. We comparatively had a 33-49 record. You realize to get that 35-38 difference in historical value, we'd need to win an equivalent to the '67 Sixers, the '73 Celtics, hell barely what we pulled off in '09. Those records don't grow on trees. For more comparisons, the Spurs had previously slogged through a painful dweller '97 with Robinson to get the #1 Duncan (a legend in the making) who was already basketball ready with 4 years of college. Additionally, the same for the '87 Spurs who finally got Robinson a year or so later. I think Bird's in the conversation as well as the '96 Bulls, who set the NBA record with 72 wins prior to the sub 50 win mark for only 20 win improvements.

Of course, math isn't 100% accurate, but let's just focus on being a normal playoff team first (mid-40s), then conference finals ready (mid-50s), then finals and championship worth (low to mid 60s), anything else is bonus. That includes getting a 30 win improvement (which can be possible) and then building for the next season IF we can show progress we need to (I'm paying close attention to this team, nothing is set in stone).

I would say that having a really dominant regular season 65+ wins. And marching through the post season would put it up there.

Although yes, numbers wise hard to beat (and well offseason-wise) hard to beat the Celtics.

I just hope we don't hear boos like the Heat fans who had no clue how lucky to have what they did.

Also, again people leaving out Blatt. Spo is not a good coach. Just is not. Mike Brown is not a good coach. If Blatt is above average, and he talks like he is and acts like it. Well, he is IMO as important a get/recruiter.

If we have Mike Brown and SOMEHOW Lebron comes here. I do not think Griffin/Brown are recruiting. I think Griffin talks about awesome assistants.

Makes me wonder if Brown killed prior recruits. Who knows.

Anyways. If somehow we sniff 65+ wins and march through the playoffs I gotta think they are in the conversation.

Edit: Btw that Oakland team is an insane story I never knew. 2 years existence one year terrible as Barry sits. The next Champs. Then gone? That has to be one of the biggest in sports I would think?

IIRC maybe the 1999 Rams have them beat. Don't know their 98 record but pretty sure they came out of nowhere and won the SB? But, Football is a bit more like that ie predictable that teams doing little seemingly will suddenly be good. Much more parity. Less import of location, etc.
 
Here's where I think you could be wrong.
....
In time, you'll come to appreciate this signing.

I hope I'm wrong. I'm just keeping my expectations low. Marion was a player that seemed like he should have had a big performance drop off in his early 30's, but he has only had moderate declines so far. Maybe Marion has the lateral mobility and basketball IQ to transition to a Bruce Bowen/ James Posey role for a couple years or maybe Marion is a true freak of nature and just keeps going & going. He's played 39,000 NBA minutes so far, what's a few more? After a certain point, I guess I should stop waiting for the wheels to come off and start marveling.

It's pretty much impossible to fault the signing. Cavs didn't give up anything to get him. He potentially is a solid substitution at two positions. He's almost certainly going to be better than any other vet min guy left on the market. What's not to like?
 
I hope I'm wrong. I'm just keeping my expectations low. Marion was a player that seemed like he should have had a big performance drop off in his early 30's, but he has only had moderate declines so far. Maybe Marion has the lateral mobility and basketball IQ to transition to a Bruce Bowen/ James Posey role for a couple years or maybe Marion is a true freak of nature and just keeps going & going. He's played 39,000 NBA minutes so far, what's a few more? After a certain point, I guess I should stop waiting for the wheels to come off and start marveling.

It's pretty much impossible to fault the signing. Cavs didn't give up anything to get him. He potentially is a solid substitution at two positions. He's almost certainly going to be better than any other vet min guy left on the market. What's not to like?

Especially if you consider who is left.

Hoopshype rated him the number 1 SF left.

Otherwise take your pick of Michael Beasley, Jordan hamilton, Francisco Garcia, Rashard Lewis, Chris Douglas Roberts, Dante Cunningham, Ronnie Brewer, Hedu, Chris Singleton.

He actually played minutes last year. Could still compete. If this says that wiggins is gone (which it clearly does). Well, great signing if only to EXTEND LEBRON'S CAREER.
 
Of course, math isn't 100% accurate, but let's just focus on being a normal playoff team first (mid-40s), then conference finals ready (mid-50s), then finals and championship worth (low to mid 60s), anything else is bonus.

I see what you're getting at, but let's be serious here. Unless Lebron gets some kind of catastrophic injury, wins in the mid-40s would be a SEVERE underachievement for this team. No team with a healthy Lebron has finished in the mid-40s since 2004-2005, and that was a team where Ira Newble was getting serious minutes. Lebron posted 60+ wins on teams coached by Mike Brown where the second best player was Mo Williams. I would argue that this is Lebron's best lineup and coach ever. If this team stays healthy, anything short of the EC finals is terrible, and it would be disappointing not to make the finals.
 
[video=youtube_share;eBb2q4KxU0I]http://youtu.be/eBb2q4KxU0I[/video]To the people that haven't had the time or energy to watch some 2014 stuff on our newest addition check it out. He still has ups and we've also added a VERY high IQ player with very good passing ability on top of his defense.

He also plays the game fast......rare trait for vets
 
I'd also note that he played over thirty minutes a game last year, and that undoubtedly takes a toll on a guy his age who is asked to contribute on both ends of the floor. In Cleveland, he'll more than likely see a minutes reduction, somewhere in the range of 20-25 a game, and he'll barely be asked to contribute on offense at all, aside from shooting open jumpers, of course. Personally, I think Marion will see a production decrease due to being less of a factor, but he'll probably see an efficiency increase, which I expect from a lot of our guys.

At worst he reminds me of Ron Harper at the end of his career with the Lakers. Similar to Marion in that he had length and good athleticism. He lost that athleticism but Phil Jackson kept him around and man did he play some critical minutes for that team. Jackson used him as a defensive stopper and in those 20mpg he was used, he still surprised a lot of guy as he will able to use the most of what was left over. Marion is very similar but he seems to have a bit more left in the tank then Harper did by then.

Every title team has these glue guys and having a good glue who fills holes is as important as having stars. Miami was a great example what happens going from having perfect glue guys like Battier and then losing them
 
2007 Finals Roster
PG/SG 6 United States Shannon Brown (Michigan State)
PG/SG 1 United States Daniel Gibson* (Texas)
PF 90 United States Drew Gooden* (Kansas)
SG 32 United States Larry Hughes (Saint Louis)
C 11 Lithuania Žydrūnas Ilgauskas* (Lithuania)
SF 23 United States LeBron James* - Captain (St. Vincent-St. Mary HS,
Akron, OH)
PG 19 United States Damon Jones (Houston)
PF/C 27 United States Dwayne Jones (Saint Joseph's)
SF/PF 24 United States Donyell Marshall (Connecticut)
SF 14 United States Ira Newble (Miami (OH))
SF/SG 3 Serbia Sasha Pavlović* (Serbia)
PF/C 31 United States Scot Pollard (Kansas)
PG 20 United States Eric Snow - (Michigan State)
PF/C 17 Brazil Anderson Varejão (Brazil)
SG/PG 4 United States David Wesley

I think we will be ok even if we don't get our rim protecting center.
 
Minutes are going to be tight but Marion will mostly be playing behind Love. LeBron and Miller mostly at the 3. Waiters and Ray will probably hold down the 2 so Marion's minutes will be coming behind Love. I think Tristan plays C behind Varejao unfortunately. Especially if we don't get a big.
 

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