Who Should Be the Franchise Four for the Cleveland Indians?

[Real Deal]

Belle was most likely on roids too, but never was a sure claim. Dude was 185 then next minute he was 230 and jacked. So who knows really. Also had a lot of rage in him, dude was crazy.

Thome being 7th on the HR list and never linked to roids in a steroids era. Pretty amazing.

Sure he bolted and fans were devastated, he was here from 1989-2002. Left at 32 years old and wanted maximum amount of dollars, couldn't blame him now after understanding that money over everything. I'm just a Thome Homie.

He'll always be a face of the Indians. Baegra is correct when he stated the '95 Indians will forever have the best lineup in MLB's history.

 

[Steve_424]

Belle was most likely on roids too, but never was a sure claim. Dude was 185 then next minute he was 230 and jacked. So who knows really. Also had a lot of rage in him, dude was crazy.

Thome being 7th on the HR list and never linked to roids in a steroids era. Pretty amazing.

Sure he bolted and fans were devastated, he was here from 1989-2002. Left at 32 years old and wanted maximum amount of dollars, couldn't blame him now after understanding that money over everything. I'm just a Thome Homie.

He'll always be a face of the Indians. Baegra is correct when he stated the '95 Indians will forever have the best lineup in MLB's history.

Amazing what being nice to the media does for a guy

 

[Steve_424]

I want to be clear in following up my last post with the note that I am not accusing Jim Thome of using steroids. I'm of the "if there's no real evidence, they aren't guilty" line of thought when it comes to the Roids Era. I'm just pointing out that while Belle ballooned from the time he debuted, Thome did as well. If that's the "evidence" that makes you suspect Belle used, you should suspect Thome did as well. Belle was hated by the media and many fans while Thome is a media darling and loved by most fans. This is why Thome has never been questioned IMO.

(Note: I don't think Thome or Belle used steroids)

 

[Real Deal]

Jim was fat.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Charles Nagy is the Boobie Gibson of the 90's Indians. Average pitcher who was lucky enough to have some of the best offenses in team history behind him.

Sandy Alomar Jr. was an outstanding player but you can't say he was a better one than Jim Thome.

Manny won't be included because of the roids. I'm not sure Thome wasn't using either, but there's no proof against him and he's a media darling, so nobody will even suggest it. Manny also bolted for more money, just like Jim.

Belle was the best hitter on the 90's Indians, but his career numbers don't stack up. Injuries killed his career.

This really came down to how you looked at it. For me, I looked at career stats and impact on Cleveland Indians baseball (and baseball in general). I didn't feel the need to include a 90's player just because it was a fun era.

We were discussing where these players peaked--not necessarily their rank on the "all-time" list, which might seem silly because it's in a thread talking about the all-time list. I was simply saying that, during 95-99, Thome was the third best slugger on our team. Not just position player (because I'd put Kenny and Omar ahead of him)--but power hitter.

Then factor in defense, and what you provide offensively compared to what the average is from your position, and there certainly is an argument for Sandy being a better catcher than Thome was a first baseman for the same stretch of years.

Now, if you want to talk about where they rank all-time, then yes. Belle didn't have a long career here. Manny left for Boston, and the roids hurt his legacy. Therefore, Thome is the greater Indian. HOWEVER, he was not more important to those '95-'99 teams.

Considering how much those teams meant to this town, and how many people around sports consider them one of the greatest teams to never win a championship, I think it's reasonable to include one player from the past 40 years in our franchise players.

 

[Steve_424]

We were discussing where these players peaked--not necessarily their rank on the "all-time" list, which might seem silly because it's in a thread talking about the all-time list. I was simply saying that, during 95-99, Thome was the third best slugger on our team. Not just position player (because I'd put Kenny and Omar ahead of him)--but power hitter.

Then factor in defense, and what you provide offensively compared to what the average is from your position, and there certainly is an argument for Sandy being a better catcher than Thome was a first baseman for the same stretch of years.

Now, if you want to talk about where they rank all-time, then yes. Belle didn't have a long career here. Manny left for Boston, and the roids hurt his legacy. Therefore, Thome is the greater Indian. HOWEVER, he was not more important to those '95-'99 teams.

Considering how much those teams meant to this town, and how many people around sports consider them one of the greatest teams to never win a championship, I think it's reasonable to include one player from the past 40 years in our franchise players.

I think an argument can be made to include someone from the 90's Indians because they were some great teams, I just don't agree with it.

I'm also not sure that team meant any more or less to the city of Cleveland than the 1948 Indians (Feller/Doby/Boudreau) or the 1920 Indians (Speaker). We were just alive to see the 90's teams and most of us weren't for the others. 200,000 attended the 1948 parade.

Considering they finished the job, I'd expect that two of the guys most responsible for it happening (Boudreau and Doby) be included.

Like I said before I'm taking Feller, Speaker, and Boudreau because you can make an argument for each of them being top 10 all-time at their respective positions. I take Doby because he was one of the most significant figures in changing baseball forever and helped us win a World Series.

 

[Seiklis]

Considering they finished the job, I'd expect that two of the guys most responsible for it happening (Boudreau and Doby) be included.

If that's the premise we're going with: Stan Coveleski in 1920 World Series....
3 wins ERA 0.67 27 innings pitched

 

[godfather]

I want to be clear in following up my last post with the note that I am not accusing Jim Thome of using steroids. I'm of the "if there's no real evidence, they aren't guilty" line of thought when it comes to the Roids Era. I'm just pointing out that while Belle ballooned from the time he debuted, Thome did as well. If that's the "evidence" that makes you suspect Belle used, you should suspect Thome did as well. Belle was hated by the media and many fans while Thome is a media darling and loved by most fans. This is why Thome has never been questioned IMO.

(Note: I don't think Thome or Belle used steroids)

Lmao, Belle definitely did them, I think. I love him, but I'd be stunned if he didn't use them.

He was caught corking his bat, so ethics, and Albert Belle, don't go together. I really don't care though.

It's the same with Bonds. He obviously did them, but these two were great hitters regardless. I don't think anyone in baseball "feared" a hitter more than Belle, outside Bonds of course at the time.

Belle was the definition of premier slugger. I don't think the Indians ever had a better slugger than him, personally.

I am sure some might go with Manny, or even old school with Rocky Colavito.

Belle hit 52 doubles, 50 home runs in only 139 games! That is incredible! That's just remarkable, and I don't think anyone has ever done that before.

Amazing he wasn't MVP that year, because everyone in the media hated his guts.

I'd take Belle, in his prime, to win me the game at the plate, over any Indian in the history of baseball.

 

[Steve_424]

If that's the premise we're going with: Stan Coveleski in 1920 World Series....
3 wins ERA 0.67 27 innings pitched

I used this as my tiebreaker if it was close, not my sole reason.

 

[Steve_424]

Lmao, Belle definitely did them, I think. I love him, but I'd be stunned if he didn't use them.

He was caught corking his bat, so ethics, and Albert Belle, don't go together. I really don't care though.

It's the same with Bonds. He obviously did them, but these two were great hitters regardless. I don't think anyone in baseball "feared" a hitter more than Belle, outside Bonds of course at the time.

Belle was the definition of premier slugger. I don't think the Indians ever had a better slugger than him, personally.

I am sure some might go with Manny, or even old school with Rocky Colavito.

Belle hit 52 doubles, 50 home runs in only 139 games! That is incredible! That's just remarkable, and I don't think anyone has ever done that before.

Amazing he wasn't MVP that year, because everyone in the media hated his guts.

I'd take Belle, in his prime, to win me the game at the plate, over any Indian in the history of baseball.

1) There is no proof of Belle using steroids. Same goes for Thome.

2) Belle corked his bat, Thome lied several times to the team and the media to help maintain his clean image. Both have taken a self-serving approach in their careers.

3) I'd take Belle as well...maybe the most feared hitter in Indians history.

 

[godfather]

Belle was most likely on roids too, but never was a sure claim. Dude was 185 then next minute he was 230 and jacked. So who knows really. Also had a lot of rage in him, dude was crazy.

Thome being 7th on the HR list and never linked to roids in a steroids era. Pretty amazing.

Sure he bolted and fans were devastated, he was here from 1989-2002. Left at 32 years old and wanted maximum amount of dollars, couldn't blame him now after understanding that money over everything. I'm just a Thome Homie.

He'll always be a face of the Indians. Baegra is correct when he stated the '95 Indians will forever have the best lineup in MLB's history.

Eh, I think it's in the top-5 all-time.

But the 1927 Yankees might roll over in their graves over that one.

We had more power overall, but shit, the Yankees had over 4 guys hitting higher than .330.

Ruth had 60 home runs that year, Gehrig with 47. That's got to be the best offensive team in the history of baseball.

I mean Gehrig with 173 runs batted in, Ruth 165, that's just fucking insane. Not fair to their time.

 

[godfather]

1) There is no proof of Belle using steroids. Same goes for Thome.

2) Belle corked his bat, Thome lied several times to the team and the media to help maintain his clean image. Both have taken a self-serving approach in their careers.

3) I'd take Belle as well...maybe the most feared hitter in Indians history.

Of course there's no proof. There's technically no proof Sosa or Bonds did them. Obviously it's a general opinion, but given the fact it was going on so strongly at the time. I find it almost impossible Belle didn't do them.

Do you think it was beneath him? He's as shady and malicious as it gets. I'd be stunned if he didn't.

Thome I don't necessarily think would do it. I think ethics and character apply to him.

I know people hated Manny and Thome for leaving, but I think people underestimate how fucking powerful the players union is in baseball.

Manny was going to stay! He wanted to take less money, but those bastards in the union stepped in, and put a lot of pressure on him to go to Boston.

It just wasn't that simple. These were guys that I think really wanted to stay, but a lot of other things were in play that forced them out.

It's easy for fans to look back and say they are liars, or have low character. They were young men, being put to work, and taken advantage to do things for others best interest, and not their own.

 

[Real Deal]

The old days had great players but the competition level couldn't of been like it is now. There are some crazy inflated stats, as if players only threw 80mph fastballs or something.

 

[godfather]

The old days had great players but the competition level couldn't of been like it is now. There are some crazy inflated stats, as if players only threw 80mph fastballs or something.

I don't know, there were some serious hard throwers then.

Walter Johnson was definitely one of the fastest hard ball throwers ever.

Feller was clocked as high as 107.4 during an exhibition. Overall, yeah, they probably didn't throw as hard, because they pitched a hell of a lot more innings then.

 

[AZ_]

Bob Feller didn't throw 107 MPH.

I'm sorry, that's simply preposterous.