Who Should Be the Franchise Four for the Cleveland Indians?

[Adrenochrome]

Of the listed options Doby/Speaker/LaJoie/Feller are the clear choices...

I'd add Shoeless Joe Jackson to the vote, and maybe Cy Young also (though he technically spent most of his career on the Cleveland Spiders)

 

[col63onel]

Of the listed options Doby/Speaker/LaJoie/Feller are the clear choices...

These are the exact four I first thought of before I clicked.

Only problem is Lou Boudreau kinda has to be on there as well. Feller and Doby do as well. Either Nap or Tris need to get the boot. I'd vote for Lajoie

1.) Speaker played for the Red Sox a bit more than Lajoie played elsewhere
2.) The team was called the "Naps" for a while after Lajoie
3.) Tris is the same name as the chick from Divergent.

So Feller, Doby, Boudreau, Lajoie

 

[Steve_424]

Of course there's no proof. There's technically no proof Sosa or Bonds did them. Obviously it's a general opinion, but given the fact it was going on so strongly at the time. I find it almost impossible Belle didn't do them.

Do you think it was beneath him? He's as shady and malicious as it gets. I'd be stunned if he didn't.

Thome I don't necessarily think would do it. I think ethics and character apply to him.

I know people hated Manny and Thome for leaving, but I think people underestimate how fucking powerful the players union is in baseball.

Manny was going to stay! He wanted to take less money, but those bastards in the union stepped in, and put a lot of pressure on him to go to Boston.

It just wasn't that simple. These were guys that I think really wanted to stay, but a lot of other things were in play that forced them out.

It's easy for fans to look back and say they are liars, or have low character. They were young men, being put to work, and taken advantage to do things for others best interest, and not their own.

Bonds has been tied to BALCO, Sosa tested positive...so there's definitely proof that both used.

I don't think it's beneath Belle to cheat, but why can't we say the same for Thome? Do you know the guy? He openly lied to the fans and the front office, so why not? Again, I'm not saying he used, I'm just saying it's naive for us to just exclude him but make wild assumptions on other guys.

As for Manny, I suggest this archived transcript from 2000.

 

[godfather]

Bonds has been tied to BALCO, Sosa tested positive...so there's definitely proof that both used.

I don't think it's beneath Belle to cheat, but why can't we say the same for Thome? Do you know the guy? He openly lied to the fans and the front office, so why not? Again, I'm not saying he used, I'm just saying it's naive for us to just exclude him but make wild assumptions on other guys.

As for Manny, I suggest this archived transcript from 2000.

I stopped following baseball for so long, I've forgotten whether Sosa did, or didn't get nailed. Well, it was no secret he did it, I mean his head was so ridiculously big compared to what it was when he first came up. Same with Bonds.

I don't know for 'sure' if Thome did, or didn't. I was just stating my opinion, that I'd go probably not. Wouldn't literally surprise me if he did, because so many did.

But Belle, it would almost be comical if he 'didn't' do it. Imagine Belle saying, no to 'riods. This is the same guy that almost ran over some kids with his car, has beaten women, has been caught corking his bat. Shit, he's no choir boy, man.

Regardless of Thome lying, or not, I don't think we can come close to comparing the two as individuals.

Bob Feller didn't throw 107 MPH.

I'm sorry, that's simply preposterous.

Are you calling Feller a liar? If Bob Feller said it, even if its preposterous, fuck you, he did it.

 

[Real Deal]

Ha, after doing a little digging, Bob was clocked by a photo cell device at 107mph, lol that's insane I want some authenticity

 

[macbdog]

Guilty or not we simply will not know because the innocent have nothing to point to to defend themselves- no testing or any records. Just the breaks.

Steroids became a part of the game for over a decade before anyone- including fans- really cared. Can't pretend it didn't happen. Can't pick and choose who you think juiced and who didn't based on size because the benefit of steroids is rapid recovery- not size, and in a grinding daily game being able to be 100% more often than not will bump numbers as much as adding 20 lbs of muscle. We just can't look at hat sizes and assume or reject that a guy sauced.

Whether I decide the circumstantial evidence convicts Thome or not is inconsequential- he would have dominated in any era. Prodigious power into his 40s. Fantastic eye at the plate. Could go the opposite way and with power- in fact all his power in the minors was to left. Because of that you couldn't just feed him offspeed stuff off the outside of the plate. Hit for average early on until he was able to pull the ball with more authority.

Fans have simply let their judgement be clouded by their fragile feelings and seemed damned and determined to hold him to a higher standard than the other two who fled, Belle and Ramirez. Maybe it is racism? These fans expected the good, wholesome white guy to stick it out, while the flighty Latino was deemed too stupid to be held to that standard ('Manny being Manny, those silly Latinos! Conjuring their JoBus LOLZ)? Was Belle just the angry black man to them, so of course it was ok that he 'stuck it to man'? I remember how vociferous the attack on Belle was when he left- you would have thought he murdered those trick or treaters. Yet now all is forgotten... but Thome is still held to a higher standard and chastised for it. All Because, maybe, fans expected the latino and black guy to leave, but the country 'awe shucks' guy? Now his word was gold in Cleveland. How dare he do what, looking back, was pretty logical. Truely bizarre.

 

[Steve_424]

I stopped following baseball for so long, I've forgotten whether Sosa did, or didn't get nailed. Well, it was no secret he did it, I mean his head was so ridiculously big compared to what it was when he first came up. Same with Bonds.

I don't know for 'sure' if Thome did, or didn't. I was just stating my opinion, that I'd go probably not. Wouldn't literally surprise me if he did, because so many did.

But Belle, it would almost be comical if he 'didn't' do it. Imagine Belle saying, no to 'riods. This is the same guy that almost ran over some kids with his car, has beaten women, has been caught corking his bat. Shit, he's no choir boy, man.

Regardless of Thome lying, or not, I don't think we can come close to comparing the two as individuals.



Are you calling Feller a liar? If Bob Feller said it, even if its preposterous, fuck you, he did it.

I'm not sure Thome is either, which is my point. Thome lied to fans and used his popularity here to leverage the Indians front office for personal gain. Forget that "he was pressured by the Union" stuff - underneath Thome's "aw shucks" country boy persona there's a very smart man. He knew exactly what he wanted to do and how to do it.

You have to be very careful in looking at a person for who they are and the actions they take and how those actions are projected by the media. Belle's major flaw was his anger, which the media made sure we knew about (throwing the ball, chasing kids, etc). That doesn't mean he's more apt to use steroids.

Like I said, I don't think Thome took them, but I don't really think Belle did either. Using would have helped him recover faster from his injuries and extended his career, and that didn't seem to happen.

 

[Steve_424]

Guilty or not we simply will not know because the innocent have nothing to point to to defend themselves- no testing or any records. Just the breaks.

Steroids became a part of the game for over a decade before anyone- including fans- really cared. Can't pretend it didn't happen. Can't pick and choose who you think juiced and who didn't based on size because the benefit of steroids is rapid recovery- not size, and in a grinding daily game being able to be 100% more often than not will bump numbers as much as adding 20 lbs of muscle. We just can't look at hat sizes and assume or reject that a guy sauced.

Whether I decide the circumstantial evidence convicts Thome or not is inconsequential- he would have dominated in any era. Prodigious power into his 40s. Fantastic eye at the plate. Could go the opposite way and with power- in fact all his power in the minors was to left. Because of that you couldn't just feed him offspeed stuff off the outside of the plate. Hit for average early on until he was able to pull the ball with more authority.

Fans have simply let their judgement be clouded by their fragile feelings and seemed damned and determined to hold him to a higher standard than the other two who fled, Belle and Ramirez. Maybe it is racism? These fans expected the good, wholesome white guy to stick it out, while the flighty Latino was deemed too stupid to be held to that standard ('Manny being Manny, those silly Latinos! Conjuring their JoBus LOLZ)? Was Belle just the angry black man to them, so of course it was ok that he 'stuck it to man'? I remember how vociferous the attack on Belle was when he left- you would have thought he murdered those trick or treaters. Yet now all is forgotten... but Thome is still held to a higher standard and chastised for it. All Because, maybe, fans expected the latino and black guy to leave, but the country 'awe shucks' guy? Now his word was gold in Cleveland. How dare he do what, looking back, was pretty logical. Truely bizarre.

I think race plays a huge factor in why Ramirez and Belle are hammered more. Belle? Openly said he was going top dollar. Ramirez? Openly said he was going top dollar. Thome? Told fans he didn't want to leave, told the front office he didn't want to leave, then did so anyhow.

Who handled it the worst out of the three?

Who really treated the fans and the team with the most respect in the situation?

After thinking of the responses to those two questions, think about this third one - who just had a statue put up in his honor?

 

[macbdog]

I think race plays a huge factor in why Ramirez and Belle are hammered more. Belle? Openly said he was going top dollar. Ramirez? Openly said he was going top dollar. Thome? Told fans he didn't want to leave, told the front office he didn't want to leave, then did so anyhow.

Who handled it the worst out of the three?

Who really treated the fans and the team with the most respect in the situation?

After thinking of the responses to those two questions, think about this third one - who just had a statue put up in his honor?

Hammered more? Not even close for Ramirez. Belle was enemy no 1 until the sellout streak stopped, and since has been just about absolved by the fan base. However, several posts in this thread attest to forgiveness of these two while a continued vilification of Thome. I agree racism definitely played a part in the initial backlash- the fan response to Belle was embarrassingly nasty, despite it being absurd looking back that the Tribe- in the top tier in revenue- let him go. It was appalling to hear, and I was just a teenager. The things said to him at games would have gotten folks rang up on charges if said today in a public setting. It didn't matter to anyone then that he said he would go for top dollar- his word meant nothing to them. This is a latter-day rationalization not to absolve Belle but to continue to chastise Thome. Belle was attacked simply because he left- reasons be damned. Ramirez faced hostility but he also stayed in the same league so the fans had access to him in the immediate aftermath. Only had access to Thome in his Philly time, what, once or twice?

As for your queries: Belle handled it the worst- but he got it the worst. Not that it excuses his behavior but I can understand if the waves of insults led to him having an outburst. Manny taunted Cleveland fans repeatedly over the years, but again, fans assumed he was an idiot so it really raised no one's ire. Thome never said a bad word about the city. As for his statue, I think that speaks as much to how he mended fences with the only ones he really hurt by leaving- his former employers- and speaks of his character. The continued resentment is just bizarre especially when weighed against the offered forgiveness of two who were rather unrepentant. I think all three should be forgiven which is why this lingering hatred flummoxes me.

 

[Frank Stallone]

Crazy seeing Mike Trout as a franchise four for the Angels and, honestly, can't argue against it.

Nap Lajoie looked like Johnny Manziel.

Was probably a better Quarterback though.

I <3 you.

 

[AZ_]

Who really treated the fans and the team with the most respect in the situation?

Who really treated the fans and the team with the most respect in every other situation throughout his dozen years with the organization?

Who volunteered to take the Caravan tour every winter to meet fans from all around Ohio? Who always openly proclaimed his love for the city and fans through the public lens?

But oh well, he made a decision to leave that he himself admits was a mistake.

Dead to me.

 

[godfather]

Ha, after doing a little digging, Bob was clocked by a photo cell device at 107mph, lol that's insane I want some authenticity

It's probably bullshit, but I like to believe he did it, because Bob Feller was awesome.

So, I choose to believe he did it. Myths are kinda cool.. Did Ted Williams REALLY hit a 502 ft home run? Some don't believe he really did. 502ft is insane.

 

[godfather]

And just because someone "lied" doesn't make them a bad person. People lie all the time. There's not a single person who has never lied, once, in their life.

Thome always handled himself with nothing but class. There's just no way you can compare him, to Belle, who acted like nothing but a first class psychopath.

And I loved Belle, I was a huge fan of his. I accepted him, because he was so damn good, but Belle was capable of almost anything.

So him doing steroids? Is there proof he did it? Of course not, but like I said, I'd be very, very surprised if he didn't do them.

Knowing everything he's done, steroids would make him looked like a decent person in comparison.

 

[Stark]

Somebody didn't vote for Bob Feller.

I honestly don't feel like digging through all of the people who voted to eliminate that one person, but whoever you are, you are incredibly misinformed about anything that has to do with Major League Baseball.

 

[Real Deal]

Somebody didn't vote for Bob Feller.

I honestly don't feel like digging through all of the people who voted to eliminate that one person, but whoever you are, you are incredibly misinformed about anything that has to do with Major League Baseball.

and should be banned from this section

I wouldn't be shocked if it was @Danny Arison