Xbox One or Playstation 4? What are you getting?

[Mdog1]

The NBA 2K games are already on Steam. FIFA won't be because EA insists on being a bitch and trying to make people download Origin even though literally no one wants to. As far as I know, all the GTA games except the most recent one have made it to Steam, and that one should be on PC by the end of the year.

As a side note, EA will probably change their tune once Steam Machines come out. They tried to compete with Origin but mostly nobody gave a shit. I literally never open Origin unless it's specifically to play an EA game, but I have Steam open whenever my PC is on. This is a battle that EA really needs to just give the fuck up. I haven't bought a game on Origin since the last Battlefield game, and I won't be buying any future games on it. I doubt I'm alone. They need to accept that and release their games on Steam. They'll make more money.

Steam takes a 30% cut off the top. In order for them to make more money on steam, they would have to sell 31% more copies. So for a 2 million seller they would have to sell 620k more games. Not to mention on Origin they control the pricing 100%.

 

[RuanuLaw]

This all sounds too complicated for the basic consumer...which I assume is what's purchasing the majority of the consoles.

For example I can't foresee a parent choosing a Steam Machine over a Nintendo system or a PS4/Xbox1 for their children.

And I don't see the average consumer knowing how to or wanting to mess with all the "positive" aspects of a SM. How many people know how to dual-boot a Linux based computer?


I guess if they really streamline the OS for the basic consumer and advertise it with a proper marketing campaign, maybe then it can take on the current consoles...until then, I just don't see it overtaking Ms/Sony.

 

[gourimoko]

SM's are Linux based, and unless Steam becomes giant dicks, you will be able to run dual os' s so you can have windows and the steam os, which would allow you to then play any game.

That's not likely going to work. They would need to publish drivers for their platform and keep them up-to-date, their would need to be considerable care taken regarding dual-booting, etc.. Never going to happen. A learned user could do this, sure, but it will not be a feature of the OS. Instead, they'll just do what they've been doing, publishing cross-platform games. Any game that works in Mac OS X will work in Steam because those games are almost assuredly designed from a POSIX standpoint, making them fairly platform independent. They also use OpenGL and not DirectX natively (using an abstraction layer).

But running Windows on your Steam Machine won't be how you'll play games...

The biggest problem at this point, other than price performance (price/performance is jmo)

That's actually a problem for the One/PS4, not the SM. Price/Performance of those platforms is garbage. You're using laptop grade hardware components, including your GPU. So the performance end of that ratio is very very low for a "next-gen" console. SMs promise to have multiple price points with multiple levels of performance.

is that the biggest games almost always have windows requirements, so you have to buy your sm, and a windows license.

This won't be happening at all. Those games have Windows requirements for one simple reason: there is no high-end graphics capability for iMacs and Macbooks, so those games wouldn't be any good on Macs. It's an issue of hardware compatibility.

Mdog, any game that has an OpenGL compatible abstraction layer will work on Steam. Games do NOT have "Windows" requirements, they have hardware requirements. Game developers aren't writing WinAPI code, and almost all of those "top" games have console ports. So, any game that works on anything other than the Xbox One/360 would, by definition, use OpenGL at it's core. Because only Windows/Xbox uses DirectX.

So again, there won't be any Windows requirements, and there won't be any Windows installations required on SM.

So the steam client is limited in the games they can offer.

They are limited in the same way the PS4 is limited. Which means, they aren't limited.

EA for example has their own Origin service, but with a sm, as it is completely an open system, you can in fact download origin, and buy EA games.

I doubt that will be the case. People would probably need to drop down to some "Other OS" like setup in order to get that to work, and even then it might not. Folks are assuming that because it's "Linux" based that all things Linux based are equivalent. They are not. You can't run desktop Origin on Android, but Android IS Linux...

Running the Linux kernel does not mean that Steam OS will be compatible with every day KDE/Gnome applications (if Origin even runs in that environment).

Completely different from consoles. You have a closed ecosystem, such as PSN, vs an open one, where you could have 30 different places you buy games on.

I doubt Steam dismantles their DRM, and I doubt they will provide an open means to use their platform in such a manner. Open ecosystem - with digital signing for consumer and publisher protection. So, not completely open. Steam as it is, is anything but "open."

At least that is the way I understand it, maybe I am 100 wrong, and Gour or Aux will correct me.

Happy to do so.. :chuckles:

 

[Mdog1]

I don't really know what to say in response. It seems to me like I would lose out on a lot of the games I might want to play, such as Battlefield 307, or AC59 (don't know if Ubi sells games separately from steam or not, I know SP game was on steam though).

If that is the case sm's are nothing to me. I would much rather just have a pc where I can play those games.

Also just to the p/p, I personally think it is horrid for sm's.

If I want a sm that will play games 5 years from now as good as a ps4, I am dropping well over 2x as much money on it.

Has there been any news on the 800 series? I saw a rumour it may be revealed at gamescom or something like that. I keep watching that all unfold, because I am very interested in seeing the improvement made.

I want to build a pc, but the 2 things I am waiting for is ddr4, and 20nm gpu.

Also gour, if I do build a pc, is it foolish to go balls to the walls with a top of the line cpu? I keep reading that 2600k's are fine for gaming, but I am apprehensive on that because I don't want to have to upgrade again in 6 months or a year.

 

[gourimoko]

I don't really know what to say in response. It seems to me like I would lose out on a lot of the games I might want to play, such as Battlefield 307, or AC59 (don't know if Ubi sells games separately from steam or not, I know SP game was on steam though).

I don't think Steam will enforce the 30% rule for the consoles as these games aren't "apps" and it makes little sense to do so. They'll probably match whatever percentage exists for Microsoft and Sony and only use the 30% rule for "app" like games like XBLA, etc.

I really doubt Steam will be more expensive for publishers than any other platform.

If that is the case sm's are nothing to me. I would much rather just have a pc where I can play those games.

It's not likely the case.

Also just to the p/p, I personally think it is horrid for sm's.

Makes no sense at all.

If I want a sm that will play games 5 years from now as good as a ps4, I am dropping well over 2x as much money on it.

Makes no sense at all. The PS4's GPU is basically a high-level laptop graphics card. It doesn't compare to high-end desktop graphics cards. It's not a great GPU because it's not fully discrete and is lacking shader cores. The Xbone is not worth mentioning..

In 5 years time the PS4's graphics will be outdated. As far as 2x the price, I have no idea what you're talking about as OEM bulk price (on lots over 1000) for a GTX 760 reference card is $200. RETAIL can be had for as little as $299. So a $450 SM would TROUNCE the PS4 today, tomorrow, and 5 years from now.

Has there been any news on the 800 series? I saw a rumour it may be revealed at gamescom or something like that. I keep watching that all unfold, because I am very interested in seeing the improvement made.

Have no idea, but you don't need an 800 series to compete with the garbage that's in the PS4.

I want to build a pc, but the 2 things I am waiting for is ddr4, and 20nm gpu.

Waste of time. Will mean nothing in the long-run. Just being honest with you bro. If you want a PC, now is a great time to build.

Also gour, if I do build a pc, is it foolish to go balls to the walls with a top of the line cpu?

Depends... If you only do gaming, and graphics is moderately important than yes. But if graphics are EVERYTHING to you, or you will be doing extensive work, then no. I personally do not build gaming machines that don't have top-of-the-line CPUs.. But that's my personal preference. You could easily build one with a cheap AMD CPU.

I keep reading that 2600k's are fine for gaming, but I am apprehensive on that because I don't want to have to upgrade again in 6 months or a year.

2600k will not be outdated for at least 6-8 years. We have nearly reached the limits of electrical CPU design as it is. Beyond 16nm, that's it. We'll be moving completely to new technology. So linear processing power has pretty much reached it's limits (very close) without new technology.

 

[gourimoko]

One other point.. It is possible to build a SM with Thunderbolt technology enabling upgrading of the graphics capability by using an external accessory. Graphics cards could also be configured to use an upgraded PCMCIA-style slot (Thunderbolt) making them swappable; similar to server HDD hotswapping for hard drives. So a person could buy an SM, and either easily swap out the cards or add another one externally for SLI/Crossfire.

Since it's a fairly open standard, there are LOTS of possibilities here.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I think one thing that gets overlooked with Steam is the lack of distribution cost for publishers. There's a reason developers and publishers continue to use it as a platform, and that's because it's profitable for them. I don't see the Steam Machine changing that. If anything, it just opens up all of those games to a wider audience.

 

[Mdog1]

I didn't want to quote, can't read it all anyways on ky phone.

I see no way in which steam wouldn't enforce their 30% fee for games. I don't know how the consoles do it in terms of digital, I know the royalty fee is around 10% for physical games.

So 6 dollars vs. 18. The costs are much less with digital distribution, obviously. But if the console makers split the retailer cut, with the publisher, and keep their royalty, it would still be far less than steam.

As for the current crop of pc components, since I am so close to the end of the 700 series cycle, I can wait no problem. Besides I am stretched relatively thin at this point, 1600 for an electritian tuesday, 2800 for furniture about 2-3 weeks ago.

My money just keeps going out at this point. So far this year I am at about 3k for a tv, 3k for renovations, and 3k for furniture. Another 1600 for the electrical, and then 2k or so to get the renovations finished.

So needless to say I gotta save some money to buy the type of pc I want to, which means at least another 3 or 4 months.

I just want to be able to play games at 120fps, and super sample from 1440p. Shouldn't be that expensive right lol.

So that is why to me the sm just isn't worth it at this point, I don't even know if you can get dual gpu steam machines.

Keep in mind before you tell me I could get that computer for 1200, that I am Canadian. The pricing here is nuts. Go healthcare?

 

[Mdog1]

I think one thing that gets overlooked with Steam is the lack of distribution cost for publishers. There's a reason developers and publishers continue to use it as a platform, and that's because it's profitable for them. I don't see the Steam Machine changing that. If anything, it just opens up all of those games to a wider audience.

But for a company like EA that already has a store up and running, they make more money by keeping the steam cut, than they would by switching over. They would sell more likely, but 30% more (at the same price)? That would be to just break even. What's the point. If you could guarantee they would sell 60% more, I am sure they would come on board.

 

[kookoo]

I haven't read any of the other posts but the last of us remastered is going to be amazing. Can't wait to play it again.

 

[gourimoko]

I didn't want to quote, can't read it all anyways on ky phone.

I see no way in which steam wouldn't enforce their 30% fee for games. I don't know how the consoles do it in terms of digital, I know the royalty fee is around 10% for physical games. So 6 dollars vs. 18.

Royalty fees for physical games vary based on licensing agreement, there is no fixed, one-size fits all, amount. According to Forbes, market estimates place last-gen licensing fees between $3-$10 with Sony and Microsoft being on the high-end of that spectrum. I'd say $8-12 is fair for the latest consoles. That's 16.67% on average.

The costs are much less with digital distribution, obviously. But if the console makers split the retailer cut, with the publisher, and keep their royalty, it would still be far less than steam.

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Simply put, there is nothing stopping Steam from matching or beating MS and Sony's standard royalty arrangements with major publishers. What is standing in their way exactly?

As for the current crop of pc components, since I am so close to the end of the 700 series cycle, I can wait no problem. Besides I am stretched relatively thin at this point, 1600 for an electritian tuesday, 2800 for furniture about 2-3 weeks ago.

My money just keeps going out at this point. So far this year I am at about 3k for a tv, 3k for renovations, and 3k for furniture. Another 1600 for the electrical, and then 2k or so to get the renovations finished.

Damn bro wtf u doin?

So needless to say I gotta save some money to buy the type of pc I want to, which means at least another 3 or 4 months.

Again, SLI 770 will still probably be the configuration to be price/performance.

I just want to be able to play games at 120fps, and super sample from 1440p. Shouldn't be that expensive right lol.

If you're doing it for 120hz with that resolution and trying to v-sync, you would need an unbelievable rig. It can be done though (with most games, some it's simply impossible). If you don't want v-sync, then you could do it with a 3/4 way Crossfire or SLI. The best price/performance option would be 4-way Radeon 290X. You could pull that off for $1650 (just GPUs) and pair it with a solid i7 CPU.

So that is why to me the sm just isn't worth it at this point, I don't even know if you can get dual gpu steam machines.

Mdog, this is what doesn't make sense. You're comparing SM to PCs saying, well they don't stack up... but they are consoles. SMs will be around the same price (maybe $100 more) than their console counterparts with better graphics and performance. Everything that makes the PS4 better than the Xbox One is applicable to the Steam Machine over the PS4. Better graphics.

You'll also have a better media platform (most likely) as surely XBMC will become available if not immediately. XBMC shits on both the PS4 and Xbone media centers.

Keep in mind before you tell me I could get that computer for 1200, that I am Canadian. The pricing here is nuts. Go healthcare?

I love Canada.. I'd trade our two health care systems any day of the week.

 

[gourimoko]

But for a company like EA that already has a store up and running, they make more money by keeping the steam cut, than they would by switching over. They would sell more likely, but 30% more (at the same price)? That would be to just break even. What's the point. If you could guarantee they would sell 60% more, I am sure they would come on board.

Because you are providing a false dilemma. You are assuming that Steam Machines will demand publishers fork over 30%. There is absolutely no reason to believe this will be the case. More than likely they will match rates from MS / Sony.

 

[AuxiliaryPie]

Because you are providing a false dilemma. You are assuming that Steam Machines will demand publishers fork over 30%. There is absolutely no reason to believe this will be the case. More than likely they will match rates from MS / Sony.

they'll probably beat their rates as an introductory type thing too. Steam Machines are the evolution of the console... my body is Reggie

 

[Simmy]

Thanks for all the info guys, really appreciate it. I think I'm going to stick with the XB1 for now. As mentioned above, they're not going to stop making games for the console regardless. Plus, I'm not a big online player (much prefer the story modes etc.) so any limitations the XB1 might have down the track shouldn't directly affect me.

 

[Mdog1]

Royalty fees for physical games vary based on licensing agreement, there is no fixed, one-size fits all, amount. According to Forbes, market estimates place last-gen licensing fees between $3-$10 with Sony and Microsoft being on the high-end of that spectrum. I'd say $8-12 is fair for the latest consoles. That's 16.67% on average.

I am trying to find the make up of a retail game pie chart. I believe the retailer cut was 15, and platform royalty was 7.

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Simply put, there is nothing stopping Steam from matching or beating MS and Sony's standard royalty arrangements with major publishers. What is standing in their way exactly?

in therms of pc games, there is no real competition, since we are talking sm's, there certainly isn't competition. Now of course they could match the royalty fee, but I don't know that they will, and nobody does.


Damn bro wtf u doin?

Home theatre/Game room. Been a lot of fun. Since it is in a basement, under bedrooms, I am trying to double stuff the roxul insulation. Super expensive.

Again, SLI 770 will still probably be the configuration to be price/performance.

If you're doing it for 120hz with that resolution and trying to v-sync, you would need an unbelievable rig. It can be done though (with most games, some it's simply impossible). If you don't want v-sync, then you could do it with a 3/4 way Crossfire or SLI. The best price/performance option would be 4-way Radeon 290X. You could pull that off for $1650 (just GPUs) and pair it with a solid i7 CPU.

Damn, 4 way sli... All I see are dollar signs haha. It doesn't matter really. My disposable income is great for about 8 months of the year, so to get a 4 way sli setup, I save an extra 2 months, no big deal.

Mdog, this is what doesn't make sense. You're comparing SM to PCs saying, well they don't stack up... but they are consoles. SMs will be around the same price (maybe $100 more) than their console counterparts with better graphics and performance. Everything that makes the PS4 better than the Xbox One is applicable to the Steam Machine over the PS4. Better graphics.

They will be better, for now. Until the ram requirements go up, or the gpu requirements go up. That is what freaks me out. At least with a 4, you know what you are getting. The games are always going to he better long term than a similar spec'd pc.

You'll also have a better media platform (most likely) as surely XBMC will become available if not immediately. XBMC shits on both the PS4 and Xbone media centers.



I love Canada.. I'd trade our two health care systems any day of the week.

Media, well wouldn't be hard to beat. Can't even watch the streams I like to watch on the 4 because of adobe.

The health care system is great, if you have kids... As a single 23 yo, no kids, it is utterly useless to me. I don't get sick, injuries are past me, I sit all day at work.

Oh I meant for the part you didn't know what I was trying to say, that I don't know with digital, if ms/sony just split the retailer cut with pubs. If they do, then both would make a lot more, if they don't the sony/ms would make a killing.

I like buying digital myself. I never realised how great it was to just be able to select one of say 10 games to play without having to move. I don't think I will be going physical again anytime soon.