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Tristan Thompson

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The problem is even if Bennett doesn't hit the upside some here see in him, there are always solid PF's who can do the dirty work that would make 4/32-40M look ridiculous for TT. Look at Paul Millsap, he's on a 2 year 20 million dollar deal in Atlanta. That's a player I'd spend 10M a year on, not TT.
 
supermario21 said:
The problem is even if Bennett doesn't hit the upside some here see in him, there are always solid PF's who can do the dirty work that would make 4/32-40M look ridiculous for TT. Look at Paul Millsap, he's on a 2 year 20 million dollar deal in Atlanta. That's a player I'd spend 10M a year on, not TT.
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Wait...it would take a minor miracle for Bennett to become as good as Millsap. This is just as much a reason not to hang our hopes on Bennett. Of course, neither of these guys are likely to deserve (or demand) contracts in the 4/32-40M range.
 
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CosmoKramer said:
Enough with AB's upside, it's not a guarantee he's going to fulfill his vast potential. He gets treated like a 20-10 guy already, what has he done to justify moving TT before we have to? Being the #1 pick in the worst draft in 20 years?

AB was the better prospect before the draft, big whoop. That meant absolutely nothing as soon as he stepped on the court. Derrick Williams was the much more highly regarded prospect predraft than TT, who would you want right now?

Unless he makes massive improvements this offseason (not impossible, just doubtful) AB is going to be the one not living up to his salary in a couple years.
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I'd rather have Derrick Williams but that's besides the point.

TT is a decent player, but a player with his skillset is easily replaceable. Players like TT are literally a dime a dozen. Honestly, we're talking about a big that hustles, effectively crashes the boards, and....does what else exactly? I just don't see why you, and many others are opposed to not only playing AB over but committing to AB as the future PF of this team rather than TT.

As I've previously stated AB has a much higher ceiling, he's more valuable on the offensive end while not being a liability defensively, and quite simply he's a much more valuable player. Even if AB doesn't work out and he does bust, so what? We can go get another energy big on TT's level in FA easily.
 
Jermaine Ali said:
I'd rather have Derrick Williams but that's besides the point.

TT is a decent player, but a player with his skillset is easily replaceable. Players like TT are literally a dime a dozen. Honestly, we're talking about a big that hustles, effectively crashes the boards, and....does what else exactly? I just don't see why you, and many others are opposed to not only playing AB over but committing to AB as the future PF of this team rather than TT.

As I've previously stated AB has a much higher ceiling, he's more valuable on the offensive end while not being a liability defensively, and quite simply he's a much more valuable player. Even if AB doesn't work out and he does bust, so what? We can go get another energy big on TT's level in FA easily.
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We already have one his name is Andy :chuckles:
 
I'm not saying Bennett will ever be as good as Millsap. I'm just echoing the sentiment that there are solid power forwards all over the league and they are always available. Heck Millsap himself will be a FA next year. I'd make a play for him.
 
CosmoKramer said:
You're still missing ImWithDan's initial point, which is that young bigs develop slowly. Jermaine O'Neal wasn't the greatest comparison, he was a more talented, injury-prone center. TT is never going to average 24 a night like JO but by the end of this year he'll have started 2 consecutive full 82 game seasons. That's 2 more than JO had his entire career.

A couple better comparisons to TT are David Lee and Al Horford. All 3 posted similar numbers (around 12-10) in their age-22 years. While the other two kept incrementally improving it seems like TT is only one that reached his ceiling this early. At 22, before his rookie contract is even up.
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Randomly throwing out per game numbers doesn't mean it's a good comparison. David Lee had a PER over 20 with a TS% in 60's his second year in the league!. Horford's PER and TS% are also much higher then what we've seen from Tristan. TS% is as pure of an scoring efficiency metric as you can get (takes into account threes, FT's, etc.) and Tristan is just way lower then any of these comparisons except for Randolph. He has a lot higher hill to climb in terms of offense then is suggested by per game metrics would suggest. Most of these other good offensive PF's you could tell they were going to be good as reflected in their TS% and their per game numbers went onto reflect that later as their minutes increased. Tristan has played a lot of NBA minutes already and he's not been able to get his TS% to a high level yet: it would be unusual progression
 
Jermaine Ali said:
I'd rather have Derrick Williams but that's besides the point.

TT is a decent player, but a player with his skillset is easily replaceable. Players like TT are literally a dime a dozen. Honestly, we're talking about a big that hustles, effectively crashes the boards, and....does what else exactly? I just don't see why you, and many others are opposed to not only playing AB over but committing to AB as the future PF of this team rather than TT.

As I've previously stated AB has a much higher ceiling, he's more valuable on the offensive end while not being a liability defensively, and quite simply he's a much more valuable player. Even if AB doesn't work out and he does bust, so what? We can go get another energy big on TT's level in FA easily.
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I guess you didn't read ImWithDan's previous post on 556. There's only 14 players in the entire NBA averaging 10+ points and 9.5+ rebounds. There's only 6 under 25 (Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, DeMarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond, TT) The other 8 have an average salary of 14.6 million. Hate on TT as much as you want, he's a valuable 22-year-old big.

Wow. Congratulations. You're the second person left on the Derrick Williams bandwagon with David Kahn. Couple of real luminaries there.

And Anthony Bennett not a defensive liability? Serious question, do you even watch Cavs games? Try paying a little more attention when the other team has the ball.

Pioneer10 said:
Randomly throwing out per game numbers doesn't mean it's a good comparison. David Lee had a PER over 20 with a TS% in 60's his second year in the league!. Horford's PER and TS% are also much higher then what we've seen from Tristan. TS% is as pure of an scoring efficiency metric as you can get (takes into account threes, FT's, etc.) and Tristan is just way lower then any of these comparisons except for Randolph. He has a lot higher hill to climb in terms of offense then is suggested by per game metrics would suggest. Most of these other good offensive PF's you could tell they were going to be good as reflected in their TS% and their per game numbers went onto reflect that later as their minutes increased. Tristan has played a lot of NBA minutes already and he's not been able to get his TS% to a high level yet: it would be unusual progression
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Does mentioning True Shooting % fifty times make it more valuable or something? You can't use it to determine whether one player is better than another, that's just an insane argument. Did you know Tristan's TS% (.519) is actually higher than LaMarcus Aldridge (.509), Zach Randolph (.502), and Ersan Ilyasova (.480)? Does that make Tristan a more efficient shooter than these bonafide NBA floor spacers? Judging by your "pure efficiency metric" I'd have to say so.
 
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CosmoKramer said:
I guess you didn't read ImWithDan's previous post on 556. There's only 14 players in the entire NBA averaging 10+ points and 9.5+ rebounds. There's only 6 under 25 (Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, DeMarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond, TT) The other 8 have an average salary of 14.6 million. Hate on TT as much as you want, he's a valuable 22-year-old big.

Wow. Congratulations. You're the second person left on the Derrick Williams bandwagon with David Kahn. Couple of real luminaries there.

And Anthony Bennett not a defensive liability? Serious question, do you even watch Cavs games? Try paying a little more attention when the other team has the ball.



Does mentioning True Shooting % fifty times make it more valuable or something? You can't use it to determine whether one player is better than another, that's just an insane argument. Did you know Tristan's TS% (.519) is actually higher than LaMarcus Aldridge (.509), Zach Randolph (.502), and Ersan Ilyasova (.480)? Does that make Tristan a more efficient shooter than these bonafide NBA floor spacers? Judging by your "pure efficiency metric" I'd have to say so.
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Tristan's raw numbers look pretty good because he gets fairly substantial minutes. If you look at per minute averages there are 29 qualified guys (25 mpg) who have at least 10 and 10 per 36 minutes. Gives guys minutes, and they'll produce numbers.

TS% is very valuable when looking at a player's scoring efficiency. Ilyasova has been straight garbage this year, so saying Tristan has been more efficient than him doesn't say much. In regard to the other two, they each have significantly higher usage rates than Tristan. It's like looking at the TS% of DeAndre Jordan or Andre Drummond and saying they're some of the best scorers in the league, they have high shooting percentages due to their minimal roles in their respective offenses. With Tristan's usage, his efficiency needs to be much higher.
 
D-Wreck said:
Tristan's raw numbers look pretty good because he gets fairly substantial minutes. If you look at per minute averages there are 29 qualified guys (25 mpg) who have at least 10 and 10 per 36 minutes. Gives guys minutes, and they'll produce numbers.
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I think you need to give some context to that (29) number.

From what I see, of those (29) guys, only six were under 25:

Kenneth Farried (24)
Greg Monroe (23)
John Henson (23)
Derrick Favors (22)
TT (22)
Jared Sullinger (21)

It's still shaking out that PF's that young (with that kind of rebounding production) are pretty rare.

So for a guy who is widely panned around here, that's not bad.
 
CosmoKramer said:
I guess you didn't read ImWithDan's previous post on 556. There's only 14 players in the entire NBA averaging 10+ points and 9.5+ rebounds. There's only 6 under 25 (Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, DeMarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond, TT) The other 8 have an average salary of 14.6 million. Hate on TT as much as you want, he's a valuable 22-year-old big.

Wow. Congratulations. You're the second person left on the Derrick Williams bandwagon with David Kahn. Couple of real luminaries there.

And Anthony Bennett not a defensive liability? Serious question, do you even watch Cavs games? Try paying a little more attention when the other team has the ball.



Does mentioning True Shooting % fifty times make it more valuable or something? You can't use it to determine whether one player is better than another, that's just an insane argument. Did you know Tristan's TS% (.519) is actually higher than LaMarcus Aldridge (.509), Zach Randolph (.502), and Ersan Ilyasova (.480)? Does that make Tristan a more efficient shooter than these bonafide NBA floor spacers? Judging by your "pure efficiency metric" I'd have to say so.
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This is an absolutely clueless post. TS% tells you exactly how efficient a player is at scoring not about how they score. A guy like Shaq was always a very efficient scorer despite not having range beyond the paint.

As Dwreck pointed out players like Randolph teams will accept a lower TS% because they are able to put up big scoring numbers and their teams don't mind them shooting inefficient long twos to help keep the floor spread. If you are not a floor spacer AND you not putting up 20+pg then good offensive big are almost always high efficiency scorers which Tristan is not. Could he develop into one: nothing is impossible but he is not following a typical pattern by any stretch of players who turned into offensive threats
 
ImWithDan said:
I think you need to give some context to that (29) number.

From what I see, of those (29) guys, only six were under 25:

Kenneth Farried (24)
Greg Monroe (23)
John Henson (23)
Derrick Favors (22)
TT (22)
Jared Sullinger (21)

It's still shaking out that PF's that young (with that kind of rebounding production) are pretty rare.

So for a guy who is widely panned around here, that's not bad.
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25 and under guys on that list:
Hickson, Plumlee, Jordan, Love, Faried, Cousins, Henson, Monroe, Vucevic, Favors, Thompson, Sullinger, Valanciunas, Davis, Drummond

15/29 guys are 25 and under

Basically, on average, every team has a guy getting 25+ mpg that scores and rebounds at a similar or better rate than Tristan. I'm sure there are more out there that just aren't seeing the necessary minutes.

Tristan is a solid rotational player who clearly has a role in this league, but he's nothing special. His production is replaceable.
 
CosmoKramer said:
I guess you didn't read ImWithDan's previous post on 556. There's only 14 players in the entire NBA averaging 10+ points and 9.5+ rebounds. There's only 6 under 25 (Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, DeMarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond, TT) The other 8 have an average salary of 14.6 million. Hate on TT as much as you want, he's a valuable 22-year-old big.

Wow. Congratulations. You're the second person left on the Derrick Williams bandwagon with David Kahn. Couple of real luminaries there.

And Anthony Bennett not a defensive liability? Serious question, do you even watch Cavs games? Try paying a little more attention when the other team has the ball.



Does mentioning True Shooting % fifty times make it more valuable or something? You can't use it to determine whether one player is better than another, that's just an insane argument. Did you know Tristan's TS% (.519) is actually higher than LaMarcus Aldridge (.509), Zach Randolph (.502), and Ersan Ilyasova (.480)? Does that make Tristan a more efficient shooter than these bonafide NBA floor spacers? Judging by your "pure efficiency metric" I'd have to say so.
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You call what I'm doing hating but I'm just being realistic...

I don't care about your numbers or statistics. I swear advanced stats are fucking up the game. The most reliable measure of a player's skill is the simple eye test. TT passes it, but my eyes also tell me that a player with his skillset is easily replaceable. Answer me this, what separates TT from a player like Reggie Evans? TT is more talented offensively, but that's about it. Even a player like Carl Landry, who is a way better player than TT. Do you know how much these players are being paid for their services this season? These guys could be had easily if we wanted them.

I see Bennett, a floor spacing, bruising big, and I see someone with more potential and someone whom is a more valued commodity leaguewide. How many player's with AB's skillset do you see leaguewide? A 6'7" PF with the potential to be an elite 2 way player. Take whatever numbers you want to back up your claims, I don't really care. Even with Bennett having a historically underwhelming rookie year, I'd rather take my chances with AB than TT going forward.

To reiterate, even if Bennett flops, which I highly doubt, we can get another player like TT. The NBA is literally littered with player's of his caliber (Jeff Adrien, John Henson, Kyle O'Quinn, Reggie Evans).
 
Jermaine Ali said:
You call what I'm doing hating but I'm just being realistic...

I don't care about your numbers or statistics. I swear advanced stats are fucking up the game. The most reliable measure of a player's skill is the simple eye test. TT passes it, but my eyes also tell me that a player with his skillset is easily replaceable. Answer me this, what separates TT from a player like Reggie Evans? TT is more talented offensively, but that's about it. Even a player like Carl Landry, who is a way better player than TT. Do you know how much these players are being paid for their services this season? These guys could be had easily if we wanted them.

I see Bennett, a floor spacing, bruising big, and I see someone with more potential and someone whom is a more valued commodity leaguewide. How many player's with AB's skillset do you see leaguewide? A 6'7" PF with the potential to be an elite 2 way player. Take whatever numbers you want to back up your claims, I don't really care. Even with Bennett having a historically underwhelming rookie year, I'd rather take my chances with AB than TT going forward.

To reiterate, even if Bennett flops, which I highly doubt, we can get another player like TT. The NBA is literally littered with player's of his caliber (Jeff Adrien, John Henson, Kyle O'Quinn, Reggie Evans).
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There is no way you can even guess what Bennett can or can't do nor can you predict what TT will do 3 years from now what I can't understand is why there is so much hate for the man. He is a hard worker and I'm not sure that can be said about Bennett, this something we will have to wait until next year to find about both of them, does Bennett come into camp in shape does TT develop a 10 jump. And being a stat/math person for twenty years I can tell one thing stats tell the story of the one put them together you just pick the data that you want to show and leave out what you don't want told.
 
Just because you match a guys minutes to make stat (per36) doesn't mean he will get that if he plays that.
 
falcon2294 said:
Just because you match a guys minutes to make stat (per36) doesn't mean he will get that if he plays that.
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I only looked at guys playing 25+ mpg, it's not some gross extrapolation to think that they would continue to produce at a similar rate in just a handful more minutes.

The point was only that Tristan's production is not that special. All the double doubles he gets are largely a result of big minutes. Many other players would produce similarly if given the opportunity.
 
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