Andrew Wiggins

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

It is also very possible that the addition of LeBron dramatically improves the play of Kyrie and Waiters. I sensed at times that they were having a personal competition to prove who should be the main guy on offense at the expense of winning. With LeBron, that competition should end because the Alpha dog on the team is no longer at issue. And winning 7 games out of 10 could go a long way towards ending petty jealousies. The bottom line is that this team may have a much better supporting cast than some believe because the players were thrown into uncomfortable roles. Because if Waiters and Bennett really are impact type players--not stars but starter quality that can produce consistently--you have a real nice collection of talent and can allow Wiggins to expand his role at a reasonable pace.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

mvposter32 said:

Alright that sounds more reasonable. I don't completely agree, but I can understand where you are coming from.

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I feel like I just won the lottery.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

mvposter32 said:

Uh-huh. Source? Love and LeBron in their prime or Old LeBron and ?????? in their prime?

Why would you gamble like that anyway?

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Dude, just stop.

I think most of us are operating under the assumption that 2015-16 version of Wiggins may not be worth trading PLUS assets, for 2014 with Kevin Love.

While I think Love makes us a title favorite, there's no guarantee we actually win a title.

Then a year later, Wiggins (IMO) is going to be a significantly better overall player than he was a year before.

A two way player that can effect the game on both ends. Those are so hard to find.

One additional year of a title window is not worth giving up that type of player PLUS other valuable assets. It's just not IMO.

I'm fine with trading for Love....I'm not fine with trading Wiggins + 1 of AB/TT/DW + picks for him. That is grossly overpaying relative to what the market is.

Kevin Love is the better individual player today.....duh....you're the only person that is still arguing a point everyone is acknowledging.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Also what no media outlet will say and I think its like the biggest factor......

No team has EVER paid a price as high as a number 1 overall pick to get a player of Love's caliber. ITS NEVER HAPPENED. Look at all the trades that moved monster players. Its usually a star for a borderline star, 2 more good players, and between 1-3 1st round picks , that are probably not in the top 10.

Best deal Minny should expect based on league history is Waiters, Bennett, Filler player, and 2 1st round picks, maybe 3 if that filler player is total trash.

No team has ever paid a price that high to get a star from a team. Go head check out the Carmelo, Chris Paul, Dwight trades. I mean damn, go check out the Lebron S & T



The only reason the media is pushing this Wiggins for Love narrative is because they are mad and jealous that we've won so many lotteries and we got LeBron back, that they just want to stick it to us in some way possible.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

mvposter32 said:

Yes you actually do trade a worthless young player that doesn't develop, because 35 year old Lebron James and 25 year old Wiggins doesn't mean squat.

This statement will seem hilarious when 25 year old Wiggins is murdering the NBA.

I want 30 year old LeBron and 26 year old Love instead. It isn't complex. Also show me the citation that says Wiggins is even close to contributing these next few years or will ever approach Love's level. You can't.

Guys, use objective or advanced metrics or don't waste other people's time then. These arguments do not sound refined or convincing at all. You're overvaluing your players as well.

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You can't cite the future...

The goal should obviously be to get Love without losing Wiggins because he provides very valuable wing defense and potential to be one of the best in the league in a few years, especially being mentored by LeBron as he looks toward the end of his prime.

You are acting as if Love is not a gamble at all. He is an incredible player, but we still lack a defensive presence inside and would be weaker on the perimeter. Not to mention his injury history. I want him bad but I don't think I want to throw Wiggins at him. It isn't as cut and dry as you're making it out to be and you're responding to people like a dick, reel it back.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

The presence of Wiggins EXTENDS LBJ's career. He's going to be able to cover minutes for Lebron this season and beyond. take Wiggins away and LBJ is back to playing 38 minutes a night for the forseeable future.

Leave Wiggins on the team, he eventually plays 38 minutes a night on young, fresh legs while LBj can get down to 28-30 minutes a night over the next year or two.

The CAVS were given a gift this year in the draft, you dont give that away for anyone.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

3 steals and 2 blocks in 28 minutes in the last summer league game. Monster!

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

mvposter32 said:

My "opinion" has nothing to do with it. These are just facts, we're not building around the best players. It is pretty ludicrous. One 70 win team is the equivalent of 20 55 win teams dude. Historically, the chart I posted before proves this.

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There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

The WAR chart you linked above has Channing Frye at No. 14, Ricky Rubio at 15, and Anthony Davis at 72. That's the statistical method you use to support your claim as to Love being among the top 4-6 best players in the league. And it's the basis for your claim that adding Love gets us to 70 wins.

You go from a role player away from being assured a title after getting Love in a trade, to waiting around for Wiggins to reach Limited T-Mac level.

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Using your logic, and your own factual sources, we shouldn't even have bothered with Kevin Love. We could have added Channing Frye (WAR 10.8), replaced KI (WAR 1.47) with Patrick Beverly (WAR 7.26), gotten 3-4 more wins than with Love, and still been "assured" of a title.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Baseline Runner said:

4 steals and 2 blocks in the last summer league game. Monster!

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Yup. His defense is really impressive both on and off the ball. Amazing for someone that age, imagine when he puts on muscle and can use his size/height against other wings mg:

It's interesting because most guys that age are going for highlights but Wiggins seems more engaged on the defensive end than he is on the offensive end.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

-Akronite- said:

Y
You are acting as if Love is not a gamble at all.

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He's not "acting" like that at all. He flat out stated that getting Love "assured" the Cavs of winning a title.

It isn't as cut and dry as you're making it out to be and you're responding to people like a dick, reel it back.

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I'd put the effort into creating and linking a "dick" chart, but I'm not that ambitious. Still, it's kind of fun to see someone come to a new place and treat everyone else with such condescension. A refreshingly blatant exhibition of dickishness.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Everyone is honestly approaching the question from the wrong angle. Is Love better than Wiggins? Absolutely. We can argue day and night about Wiggins ceiling, but if in 3 years he can impact a game the way Kevin Love does today, he will be a success.

However, the only thing Griffin should consider from a talent acquisition standpoint is: What is KLove's market value?

A billionaire wouldn't spend $50 on a cup of coffee just because he's rich. On the flip side, the Cavs shouldn't overspend for Kevin Love simply because they have a plethora of assets. To that end, I do believe Griffin hamstrung himself a bit in the deal to clear out Jarrett Jack's contract: He significantly overpaid to get a bad deal off his books, and now teams like Minnesota smell blood in the water. He needs to stand firm against other GMs to prove he acted out of a need to get LeBron under contract, and now that LeBron is signed, he won't be overpaying in deals going forward. As other posters have pointed out, a Kevin Love type trade isn't unheard of. Here's a few in recent memory:

Houston acquired James Harden for Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin, and 2 1st round picks.
The Nets acquired Deron Williams for Derrick Favors, Devin Harris and 2 1st round picks.
The Knicks acquired Melo in a massive trade involving many parts, but ultimately revolved around giving up Danilo Gallinari and Raymond Felton.
The Clippers acquired Chris Paul for Eric Gordon, Chris Kaman, Al-Farouq Aminu and a 1st round pick.

The end-all of this is that players of Love's caliber usually net four assets, typically 2 players and 2 picks, and not one of those deals has included someone even remotely close to Wiggins' potential. A player of Waiters' stature is equivalent to the "crown jewel" potential that Minnesota should expect to receive. Perhaps a Wiggins-for-Love deal straight up would be fair, but salaries would prevent that from happening.

As it stands, we need to send out more than one piece to make deal work, and we'd be overpaying substantially if we included Wiggins in that trade. Bennett, Waiters and 2 1st round picks is certainly an equitable return for Love, and I expect that Minnesota would agree to that deal after doing a thorough market evaluation over the next month. If they'd rather just let Kevin Love walk at the end of the year, then Flip is screwing his team, as it will very likely take them 3 to 5 years to acquire equivalent assets.

And I just realized this whole conversation is taking place in the Wiggins thread. Sorry for the off-topic, but people should move this debate to the Kevin Love safari IMO.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Cavs are also 3-0 so far with Bennett, Wiggins and Delly being the main players on that team. Interestingly they have held teams to an average of 72 points a game.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

I'mWithDan said:

Dude, just stop.

I think most of us are operating under the assumption that 2015-16 version of Wiggins may not be worth trading PLUS assets, for 2014 with Kevin Love.

While I think Love makes us a title favorite, there's no guarantee we actually win a title.

Then a year later, Wiggins (IMO) is going to be a significantly better overall player than he was a year before.

A two way player that can effect the game on both ends. Those are so hard to find.

One additional year of a title window is not worth giving up that type of player PLUS other valuable assets. It's just not IMO.

I'm fine with trading for Love....I'm not fine with trading Wiggins + 1 of AB/TT/DW + picks for him. That is grossly overpaying relative to what the market is.

Kevin Love is the better individual player today.....duh....you're the only person that is still arguing a point everyone is acknowledging.

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Very well said. Two other points.

Wiggins is also much, much cheaper than Love, and will be for at least 4 years. That gives us a lot more flexibility to add other talent to the roster. Also, you can only trade Wiggins once, and trading him for Love means we can't trade him for some other major talent that may become available. So, in those two respects, trading Wiggins (plus all the other shit they're demanding) give the Cavs far less flexibility to adjust this roster as we see how it plays out with the new players we already have, under the influence of a new coach.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

So is everyone done with the poster with the generic name that joined the board immediately after LeBron came back?

:chuckles:

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

The Oi said:

So is everyone done with the poster with the generic name that joined the board immediately after LeBron came back?

:chuckles:

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Need to come up with a short name for them.

Moops?