David Blatt is a former NBA coach

gourimoko said:

But.. I never said anything about geographic location, I'm obviously referring to the league that one plays in. That was apparent to the previous posters....

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You made the comparison between international and NBA differences... I'm showing why it's inherently flawed.

You're suggesting (by your text) that somehow being an international coach/player puts you at a disadvantage but I would argue that there has been multiple international MVP's in the last decade alone and the last team to win the championship mirrored many components of international style of ball. The same style of ball that made Blatt so successful overseas.

Basically, you don't make any sense.

JSS2306 said:

You made the comparison... I'm showing why it's inherently flawed.

You're suggesting (by your text) that somehow being an international coach/player puts you at a disadvantage but I would argue that there has been multiple international MVP's in the last decade alone and the last team to win the championship mirrored many components of international style of ball. The same style of ball that made Blatt so successful overseas.

Basically, you don't make any sense.

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No offense, but I don't think it's Gourimoko who's not making sense here. There have been *players born overseas* who were MVPs recently but they were not 'international players'. Guys like Nash, Nowitzki, and Parker never played meaningful minutes overseas, they came over here very young like someone leaving college after a year. The record of Euroleague stars coming over to the NBA shows that they are rarely more than role players here -- guys like Anthony Parker, Marko Jaric, Prigioni, Scola, Nocioni etc. lit it up in the Euroleague but have a hard time even starting in the NBA. Then there are all the Trajan Langdons of the world who can't stick at all in the NBA but become stars in the Euroleague.

As for the coaching style in the NBA, guys like Popovich, Kerr, and Budenholzer developed their coaching style organically out of tracking the ways that NBA rules changed and the personnel available to them changed. None of them ever coached overseas. If you think that Pop was somehow learning at the feet of some Euro coach you are mistaken. Some ill-defined 'style of ball' (that in fact expresses a lot of elements of basketball strategy that have always been there but were at times disadvantaged under NBA rules) does not mean that Euroleague coaches are somehow coaching in the same environment as NBA coaches.

cavsfever said:

No offense, but I don't think it's Gourimoko who's not making sense here. There have been *players born overseas* who were MVPs recently but they were not 'international players'. Guys like Nash, Nowitzki, and Parker never played meaningful minutes overseas, they came over here very young like someone leaving college after a year.

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Yeah, you leave college after a year because you are ready to play the world's best basketball. Only 1 of the 3 players you mentioned even played college basketball in America.

Parker played two years in the French basketball league before entering the draft, Nowitzki was an alumnus of the Rontgen Gymansium and DJK Wurzburg club before entering the draft. Steve Nash is the only player to play for an American college team before entering the draft but played his entire high school career in Canada.


It doesn't matter where you played just as it doesn't matter where you coach.

JSS2306 said:

You made the comparison between international and NBA differences... I'm showing why it's inherently flawed.

You're suggesting (by your text) that somehow being an international coach/player puts you at a disadvantage but I would argue that there has been multiple international MVP's in the last decade alone and the last team to win the championship mirrored many components of international style of ball. The same style of ball that made Blatt so successful overseas.

Basically, you don't make any sense.

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I didn't say international coaches were at a disadvantage, I said David Blatt is a rookie NBA coach. His 20 years in international basketball does not mean he does not need to make the adjustment to the NBA just as any NCAA or other Euroleague coach would need to make.

Also, I didn't say international players were at a disadvantage, I said their respective leagues are in no way comparable to ours with respect to talent level.

It isn't the same job to coach high school as is it is to coach NCAA. The same can be said of coaching NCAA vs Euroleague vs NBA. They aren't the same thing, and the level of talent is much higher progressively the closer you get to the NBA.

I don't think this is something one can really dispute.

JSS2306 said:

Yeah, you leave college after a year because you are ready to play the world's best basketball. Only 1 of the 3 players you mentioned even played college basketball in America.

Parker played two years in the French basketball league before entering the draft, Nowitzki was an alumnus of the Rontgen Gymansium and DJK Wurzburg club before entering the draft. Steve Nash is the only player to not play for an American college team before entering the draft but played his entire high school career in Canada.


It doesn't matter where you played just as it doesn't matter where you coach.

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Not sure I see your point. Parker came over here when he was 19, Nowitzki when he was 20. Their Euro play performed the same function for them as college does for US players. But you wouldn't say a longtime college coach coming into the NBA was anything but an NBA rookie coach, would you? If Jim Boeheim came to the NBA would you say he was not a rookie NBA coach?

I'm actually impressed by how Blatt has appeared to learn and grow over his rookie year as an NBA coach, it definitely shows that he has substantial coaching skill and knowledge gained from his past career even if it is his first year in the NBA. But when he starts the playoffs that will be another level of challenge and difficulty, and there is no room for growing pains in that context.

gourimoko said:

NBA players and Euro players aren't remotely the same caliber of players.

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You said this in conjunction with a point about David Blatt and I just showed 2 people who played in the Euro leagues that became MVP's.

Surely you understand the fallacies in your argument, no? Blatt has coached many international NBA players before becoming a head coach.

Again, you don't get it. You literally DID say he was at a disadvantage because the caliber of players were quote "not the same caliber" yet a lot of the NBA is made up of the same type of players.

What I meant by him being a rookie is he has not coached or coached against the grand majority of NBA players. For everyone who has been on competitive teams that compete over the course of the season it is common to scout out other teams to adjust your gameplan. Obviously the Cavs have current NBA players and Lue, but ultimately, it is Blatt making the decisions in many circumstances. The dude is obviously a talented coach, but he is an NBA rookie.

JSS2306 said:

You said this in conjunction with a point about David Blatt and I just showed you 2 MVP's who played in the Euro leagues that became MVP's.

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You said there were "multiple international MVPs in the last decade," implying that these players were Euro or international players that came over to the NBA (transitioned); but this is false. Dirk is the only international player, AFAIK, in the last decade, and as CavsFever said, he didn't play significant time overseas.

And if you're including Nash in your list, then this conversation is kind of a joke, you might as well include Kyrie.

Lastly, how does Dirk Nowitizki have anything to do with David Blatt? He is surely not representative of Euroleague basketball, hence his playing in the NBA since he was 20.

JSS2306 said:

Surely you understand the fallacies in your argument, no? Blatt has coached many international NBA players before becoming a head coach.

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I know of a few, why don't you list some significant names of American NBA players Blatt has coached to bolster your argument. Telling me he coached Mozgov and Anthony Parker doesn't mean much IMHO.

JSS2306 said:

Again, you don't get it.

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No I get it why you quoted me, and I get what this is about. Trust me, I get it.

JSS2306 said:

You said this in conjunction with a point about David Blatt and I just showed 2 people who played in the Euro leagues that became MVP's.

Surely you understand the fallacies in your argument, no? Blatt has coached many international NBA players before becoming a head coach.

Again, you don't get it. You literally DID say he was at a disadvantage because the caliber of players were quote "not the same caliber" yet a lot of the NBA is made up of the same type of players.

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Dude you're continuing the dispute while not responding to very clear points that have been made against your position. Every single NBA MVP in history played in high school, does that mean that a former high school coach wouldn't be a rookie coach in the NBA? That is the logic of your argument. NBA MVPs used the Euro leagues like high school and college here, playing there as teenagers while exiting for the NBA as soon as it became clear they had real potential. They weren't full-grown Euroleague stars they were just developing there. Adult players who were true Euroleague stars/MVPs have in general *not* been able to transfer and be stars in the NBA, showing the large talent gap that exists between the leagues.

Anyway, my last post in this dispute unless it moves forward somehow. Good luck!

And I don't want it to seem that I'm bashing or anti-Blatt, I'm not..

But we're really in here debating if there is a difference between NBA players and international players? Between the role of an NBA coach and a Euroleague coach? Between the NBA as an organization and Euroleague?

C'mon....

cavsfever said:

Dude you're continuing the dispute while not responding to very clear points that have been made against your position. Every single NBA MVP in history played in high school, does that mean that a former high school coach wouldn't be a rookie coach in the NBA? That is the logic of your argument. NBA MVPs used the Euro leagues like high school and college here, playing there as teenagers while exiting for the NBA as soon as it became clear they had real potential. They weren't full-grown Euroleague stars they were just developing there. Adult players who were true Euroleague stars/MVPs have in general *not* been able to transfer and be stars in the NBA, showing the large talent gap that exists between the leagues.

Anyway, my last post in this dispute unless it moves forward somehow. Good luck!

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You don't understand my position. My position is that coach Blatt isn't at a measurable disadvantage than any other rookie head coach nor veteran. If you could please point to any such case that Blatt lost us a basketball game rather than the players then my ears are open. Please do so now.

In fact, I would argue that his experience exceeds other first time head coaches by the sheer number of NBA players that he's coached both overseas and in the Olympics.

We're 2nd seed in the Eastern Conference. I don't know what else to tell you. He's doing a great job and the rumbling's about players calling for his firing have all but ceased for months now. We have JR Smith singing his praises.

If I worked 20 years on perfecting my craft and then somebody told me I'm a newb because I came from somewhere else then I'd tell them to fuck off. I would know that there's new rules and quips... but the job is the same. My intelligence doesn't just suddenly expire.

For a rookie head coach, he seems to be leaps and bounds better than most veteran coaches in this league, no? Using the point that NBA players are better doesn't change the game because NBA players are cut from the same cloth as anyone else in the world.

If it changed the game then the Miami Heat would be champions 4 years in a row.

They did not. They got beat by teams with lesser talent who move the ball and play a style more in tune with European philosophies.

Just curious - those who complain about Blatt's "rookie mistakes," how many experienced NBA coaches would you rather have over him today?

teamballer said:

Just curious - those who complain about Blatt's "rookie mistakes," how many experienced NBA coaches would you rather have over him today?

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Pop,
Mike Budenholzer,
Spolestra (LeBron/Love)
Doc,
Steve Kerr,
Thibbs,
Dave Joerger,
Carlisle,
Kevin McHale,
SVG

In that order.

That doesn't mean Blatt won't be better than most of the guys on that list. But I'm assuming you mean, at this very moment who do I think is a better NBA coach or also who would I rather have coaching the Cavs.

Edit: I think the bolded are great NBA coaches that maybe could have had greater success here than Blatt. But really, I'm not too concerned about it, I think Blatt has the potential to be great NBA coach.

gourimoko said:

Spolestra (LeBron/Love)

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/thread

Cassity14 said:

His point is that it's valid to call Blatt a, "rookie," because he's never coached in a league remotely close to this one in terms of overall depth of talent, not to mention the longer season and less time in between games.

The average NBA player is waaaaaaay better than the average player anywhere else in the rest of the world. That's the point.

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Not only are the MEANS way different, the DISTRIBUTIONS probably don't even overlap much (i.e., the worst NBA players might be better than the best Euroleague players). Unless we are talking about Doc Rivers' kid, that is.