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Kyrie Irving

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Flight479 said:
LeBron is clearly the one who regularly sees double teams and the primary one they game plan for. Kyrie has been amazing but I won't discount the different looks they get while on offense. Kyrie I think is unstoppable one on one. This is where Kyrie absolutely benefits from Bron being beside him
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But it's not really about this man.. That's the thing.

When lebron drives.. it's more of a clumsy power drive.

When lebron takes a fade away from midrange/3pt, you never know if you're going to get an airball or a swish.

That sounds like a far out statement and I don't intend it this way.. The duality of lebron is pretty amazing.. because he takes those shots and they look terrible sometimes, and you reach the point where you want to say, don't, don't take those shots, and then he starts drilling them.

If kyrie takes a shot, it's all good. I don't care what shot it is it's not airballing. It really doesn't matter at all. That 57 point performance? How many drifting, sideways, fadeaways, contested, shots were those?

Not to mention that I'm also pretty used to seeing lebron have 1, 2, 3 turnovers in a row.

It's kind of weird actually, it's almost like Lebron is two different players. He makes some crappy decisions and looks like he can't shoot and then BOOM he starts throwing dimes and making very difficult shots (like those random fade-away corner threes he makes, those are really tough shots to make. But then he'll miss the open 3.)
 
All4One1ForAll said:
@warriorsz32 You do realize I didn't make these rankings, right? :chuckle: I disagree with them too.

No reason Kyrie shouldn't be at least Top 6 in my opinion. Arguably fourth best.
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If you equally weight the categories like apparently ESPN went and did, there really isn't much room to argue with the overall score.

I wouldn't weight all the categories evenly, but I do feel that they are all very important for a PG, and Kyrie's weaknesses in the non-scoring categories are what's holding him back from becoming a superstar.
 
Jon said:
If you equally weight the categories like apparently ESPN went and did, there really isn't much room to argue with the overall score.

I wouldn't weight all the categories evenly, but I do feel that they are all very important for a PG, and Kyrie's weaknesses in the non-scoring categories are what's holding him back from becoming a superstar.
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Jon... Those rankings are a joke.
Any pg ranking where kyrie is lower than Mike Conley is automatic garbage.

You really want to replace kyrie with mike Conley on this team?

How did we play against the Grizzlies, by chance?

Any ranking where Damian lillard has a higher scoring rating than kyrie is flawed.

Tony Parker? Really?
Who was kyrie playing against in the 57 point game.

Kyrie is top 4-5 max currently.
 
Jon said:
If you equally weight the categories like apparently ESPN went and did, there really isn't much room to argue with the overall score.
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But I don't think anyone would argue that you should weigh each category equally, as they aren't equal.

Jon said:
I wouldn't weight all the categories evenly,
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Indeed.

Jon said:
but I do feel that they are all very important for a PG,
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Right, but in what proportion?

Jon said:
and Kyrie's weaknesses in the non-scoring categories are what's holding him back from becoming a superstar.
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I'm pretty sure Kyrie is a superstar.

But to the point, Irving isn't being held back in so much as he is excelling within the system that he's being asked to adjust to.

Irving is 4th among all point guards in PER (21.34) behind Westbrook, Curry, and Paul.

He's 5th in Offensive Win Shares among all players in the NBA; and 3rd among point guards; behind Paul and Curry.

Yet, Westbrook and Curry are both in the Top 10 of all players with respect to usage rate (38, 29, respectively).

Again, Kyrie Irving is putting up phenomenal stats for a point guard who doesn't have the ball in his hands predominantly.

If he were given the ball and told to run the offense, he would be statistically ahead of most of the players on that list since the only thing "holding him back" are his assist totals.

The very fact that John Wall is ahead of Irving should be demonstrative of error/bias in the calculation.
 
gourimoko said:
Kyrie is by far the better shooter than Russ. I think he's the better fit because he's the better scorer.

Better scorer? Whaaaaaaa???

Kyrie Irving is far more efficient, relies on far fewer free throws (he's not as dependent on superstar calls), can play equally well with the ball out of his hands, is less turnover prone, a better ball-handler, finisher, better in isolation, and is younger.

So... I'd rather have Irving over Westbrook if I'm pairing them with LeBron.

When you add K-Love, the argument goes even further in Irving's direction.

Gotta keep in mind, Westbrook's 27/8.6 is with 21.4FGA, 9.7FTA, and 38.3 USG%.... Give Kyrie 38.3 USG and 21.4FGA and he would shit on Westbrook's stats (no he wouldn't out rebound him).
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Was this your opinion in June when people wanted him traded. Westbrook is on another level and to think otherwise is as foolish as the people who think kyrie is the #1 option over lebron. Westbrook is singlehanded my willing his team to the playoffs in the West despite loosing his best player and 3rd best player.
 
apolo29 said:
But it's not really about this man.. That's the thing.

When lebron drives.. it's more of a clumsy power drive.

When lebron takes a fade away from midrange/3pt, you never know if you're going to get an airball or a swish.

That sounds like a far out statement and I don't intend it this way.. The duality of lebron is pretty amazing.. because he takes those shots and they look terrible sometimes, and you reach the point where you want to say, don't, don't take those shots, and then he starts drilling them.

If kyrie takes a shot, it's all good. I don't care what shot it is it's not airballing. It really doesn't matter at all. That 57 point performance? How many drifting, sideways, fadeaways, contested, shots were those?

Not to mention that I'm also pretty used to seeing lebron have 1, 2, 3 turnovers in a row.

It's kind of weird actually, it's almost like Lebron is two different players. He makes some crappy decisions and looks like he can't shoot and then BOOM he starts throwing dimes and making very difficult shots (like those random fade-away corner threes he makes, those are really tough shots to make. But then he'll miss the open 3.)
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So when LeBron drives he looks clumsy doing it and when he shoots it doesn't look like its going in? Also when he passes it looks poor then all of a sudden he's throwing dimes... That LeBron is something else. Has an ugly game and is still the best player in the world
But being serious I disagree with mostly all of your post. The passing I wouldn't even bring up in a Kyrie thread. If you don't like LeBron the scorer that's cool but his playmaking ability never surprises me. I've come to expect great passes and dimes from him. He'll have risky and sloppy ones just like anyone else but his vision and command on the court is only rivaled today by CP3 imo. He is in all honesty the only player on the team who can completely control a game. In his first stint I'd call it restoring order when he'd sub in after losing a lead. Other than scoring Irving isn't there
 
randymoss1881 said:
Was this your opinion in June when people wanted him traded. Westbrook is on another level and to think otherwise is as foolish as the people who think kyrie is the #1 option over lebron. Westbrook is singlehanded my willing his team to the playoffs in the West despite loosing his best player and 3rd best player.
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Exactly if you notice all he spoke about was Kyrie's ability to score. Westbrook is the better defender, regularly comes up with a clutch defensive player. The superior rebounder by far and IMO the better passer. His turnovers are a problem won't lie. He's even become a pretty good shooter. Not on Kyrie's level but above average. Like I said I'd go Steph, CP3, Westbrook and Kyrie. The first 3 in any kind of order
 
gourimoko said:
But I don't think anyone would argue that you should weigh each category equally, as they aren't equal.



Indeed.



Right, but in what proportion?



I'm pretty sure Kyrie is a superstar.

But to the point, Irving isn't being held back in so much as he is excelling within the system that he's being asked to adjust to.

Irving is 4th among all point guards in PER (21.34) behind Westbrook, Curry, and Paul.

He's 5th in Offensive Win Shares among all players in the NBA; and 3rd among point guards; behind Paul and Curry.

Yet, Westbrook and Curry are both in the Top 10 of all players with respect to usage rate (38, 29, respectively).

Again, Kyrie Irving is putting up phenomenal stats for a point guard who doesn't have the ball in his hands predominantly.

If he were given the ball and told to run the offense, he would be statistically ahead of most of the players on that list since the only thing "holding him back" are his assist totals.

The very fact that John Wall is ahead of Irving should be demonstrative of error/bias in the calculation.
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I don't consider Kyrie a superstar yet but that's only because in my opinion Lebron, Durant (when healthy), Davis, Curry, Harden (I'm sorry guys, I know he's the enemy), probably Paul, and probably Westbrook are the current superstars in the league. Basically the MVP candidates this year - guys who can carry a team into the playoffs by my definition. Kyrie will get there though and in my opinion he's already a top 12ish player in he league. He's only 23. I can understand others saying he's a superstar already though because it's a very vague term so it's up to interpretation.
 
randymoss1881 said:
Was this your opinion in June when people wanted him traded.
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Was my opinion that I'd want Kyrie over Westbrook in June?

I'd say yeah... And I've generally graded Westbrook over most other PGs historically even when he was getting trashed in the media.

randymoss1881 said:
Westbrook is on another level and to think otherwise is as foolish
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So you're saying I'm being foolish by evaluating them on their metrics?

randymoss1881 said:
as the people who think kyrie is the #1 option over lebron.
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We don't have a "secondary" option any more than the aforementioned teams in the NBA. Not every team has a distinct primary or secondary scorer. We don't, and for the umpteenth time, the numbers show Kyrie and LeBron have taken roughly the same number of shots over the season and scored roughly the same number of points (both are Top 5 for points scored in the NBA).

randymoss1881 said:
Westbrook is singlehanded my willing his team to the playoffs in the West despite loosing his best player and 3rd best player.
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What does this have to do with Kyrie?
 
Flight479 said:
Exactly if you notice all he spoke about was Kyrie's ability to score. Westbrook is the better defender,
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Don't get me wrong, I like Westbrook. But to address what you said...

Westbrook is the better defender, on average, and generates more steals, but the difference between the two is not that great.

Westbrook DRPM -0.62 (ranked 31st among point guards)
Kyrie DRPM -0.92 (ranked 34th among point guards)

The difference between the two of them is less than one standard deviation and thus within the margin of error (GotBuckets' RAPM MoE = 1stdev); so...

That's why I focused on the offensive side of the ball...

Kyrie has a higher OWS, ORtg, TS%, 3pt%, FG%, and Assist/Turnover ratio. He's a better scorer, by most measures.

Russell Westbrook has a higher rebound rate, ast rate, ft rate.... he is the better defender, but again, not by much.

If I had to pair another player alongside LeBron, I'd rather someone who can shoot, play off the ball, and wouldn't require a usage rate of nearly 40% of the teams possessions to operate at this level.
 
Funny, but at the end of this postseason, all three of those other guys will have accomplished more in the postseason than Chris Paul ever has, and quite possibly ever will. I personally find CP3 to be generally very overrated, although he is still a top 5 PG.
 
Kizzle said:
I refuse to put Curry at my number 1. Right NOW I'm going Russell, Paul, Curry, Kyrie.
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Why?

He has the second-highest PER and the highest RPM/RAPM.

He's second best defender of the bunch, and the second best facilitator of the bunch.

He's also the most efficient scorer of any point-guard in the league, by far. To that end, he is the best shooter among all point guards, and arguably the second-best ball handler among all NBA players.

He's the reigning Three Point Champion, and he'll also be, probably, making a Finals appearance this season.

Any argument that can be made for Kyrie would also apply to Steph and then some.

He is, IMHO, the best point guard in the league. Strike that, Curry is the best guard in the league, period. (I'm looking at you Harden)

Steph Curry is the one guard (1 or 2) in the NBA that I would trade Kyrie Irving for without thinking too much about it.
 
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