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2015 Home Opener -|- Indians vs. Tigers -|- April 10th, 11th, and 12th

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For those who are reasonably discussing the Tribe:

I am worried about the bullpen depth and have been since Spring Training. It's unfortunate that Floyd got hurt - having him would have allowed McAllister to settle in with a bullpen role, where I think he belongs.

I think the rotation will be fine as I expect Salazar back up before too long.

I still advocate for a Lindor call-up - he helps the team and can get them a shot in the arm.
 
sgm405 said:
For those who are reasonably discussing the Tribe:

I am worried about the bullpen depth and have been since Spring Training. It's unfortunate that Floyd got hurt - having him would have allowed McAllister to settle in with a bullpen role, where I think he belongs.

I think the rotation will be fine as I expect Salazar back up before too long.

I still advocate for a Lindor call-up - he helps the team and can get them a shot in the arm.
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I'm probably on the opposite side. I think the bullpen will be fine in the long run. There is just something about them vs Detroit that makes them look really bad, and luckily we don't play them every game of the year.

Too much swing and miss talent and guys with track records of success over consecutive seasons for them to be a poor unit. They're being over taxed early on, which is a bit of a concern though.

And McAllister will be in the bullpen full time by the end of this month or mid May IMO. Salazar is going to be back up relatively soon, just way too much arm talent for him not to be in Cleveland.

As for Lindor, I'm on the fence with him. Ramirez has yet to give me reason to call for Lindor to come in and take his spot. Also, with Gomes hurt, who do you get rid of in order to make room for him? Unfortunately it means Raburn will be sticking around for a bit longer. And Sands looks like our best hitter against lefties right now, which is sad. You also can't drop a bullpen arm right now because we need them right now. The Gomes injury is going to put is in a bad spot on and off the field until June.

Unless an injury bites Ramirez, you won't see them even mention bringing Lindor up until mid summer at the earliest. They sure aren't calling him up ASAP, mostly because they don't want him to accrue a full year of service time.
 
I don't buy the argument that Jose Ramirez hasn't given the Indians a reason to call up Lindor, and to me, it doesn't even matter if he hasn't. Ramirez is very good defensively, but Lindor is advertised as being better, and Ramirez has not been good offensively in his time in the big leagues.

Another criticism (although this really isn't Ramirez' fault), is that because of his lack of a bat, Francona has him sac bunt a ton. He led the league last year in sacrifices, and he only played in 68 games. I'm sorry, but that's a problem, and if Francona is going to continue to waste outs when he gets up to the plate, then something has to be done.

Lindor has been the top prospect in the organization since the day he was drafted, and is currently one of the top 10 in the entire league, in Triple A. If they're waiting until they feel confident that the super 2 cut off has passed, then I understand that. But if this lasts deep into the summer because Jose Ramirez is at short stop, then I just don't get the logic.
 
elcheato said:
I don't buy the argument that Jose Ramirez hasn't given the Indians a reason to call up Lindor, and to me, it doesn't even matter if he hasn't. Ramirez is very good defensively, but Lindor is advertised as being better, and Ramirez has not been good offensively in his time in the big leagues.

Another criticism (although this really isn't Ramirez' fault), is that because of his lack of a bat, Francona has him sac bunt a ton. He led the league last year in sacrifices, and he only played in 68 games. I'm sorry, but that's a problem, and if Francona is going to continue to waste outs when he gets up to the plate, then something has to be done.

Lindor has been the top prospect in the organization since the day he was drafted, and is currently one of the top 10 in the entire league, in Triple A. If they're waiting until they feel confident that the super 2 cut off has passed, then I understand that. But if this lasts deep into the summer because Jose Ramirez is at short stop, then I just don't get the logic.
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This actually isn't true...he bunts a lot on his own.

And no one is saying Lindor isn't a better player than Ramirez. You'd have to be an idiot to say Ramirez is a better prospect than him at SS as well. I'm just saying he has yet to be a liability that has cost the Tribe games, so why rush it with Lindor when he just reached AAA in the middle of last season? Shit, Ramirez was close to a 2 WAR player last year in only 68 games...not exactly bad.

And a .262/.300/.346 slash isn't exactly "not been good offensively" territory for a 21 year old rookie, and right off the bat in the bigs I'd have a hard time thinking Lindor can do that much better.

Lindor's time will come, and he'll be our SS for at least a decade, but there is no reason to rush him up right now.
 
The 2002 Tribe started 11-1 and finished 74-88.
 
Given that we got swept by Detroit anyway, that potential no-hitter against the Astros would have been cool...just saying. :chuckle:
 
BimboColesHair said:
This actually isn't true...he bunts a lot on his own.

And no one is saying Lindor isn't a better player than Ramirez. You'd have to be an idiot to say Ramirez is a better prospect than him at SS as well. I'm just saying he has yet to be a liability that has cost the Tribe games, so why rush it with Lindor when he just reached AAA in the middle of last season? Shit, Ramirez was close to a 2 WAR player last year in only 68 games...not exactly bad.

And a .262/.300/.346 slash isn't exactly "not been good offensively" territory for a 21 year old rookie, and right off the bat in the bigs I'd have a hard time thinking Lindor can do that much better.

Lindor's time will come, and he'll be our SS for at least a decade, but there is no reason to rush him up right now.
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Well then I guess my issue is with Ramirez then, and not Francona.

How is it rushing Lindor when the organization has basically said that he is ready? Him being on the roster would improve the team. Mike Aviles has played in 4 of the 6 games so far, so it's not as if Ramirez wouldn't play, either. In fact, having Lindor up here would essentially stop Aviles from playing, which would be a gigantic plus for this team, considering it isn't an exaggeration to call him one of the worst semi-regular players in the entire league.

Maybe Lindor might not do "much" better as a rookie, but at some point he has to be a rookie.. You can continue to delay that, and delay his potential for a rookie struggle, but no amount of time in Triple A is going to suddenly going to change that. He's going to be our SS for the next decade, as you say, so it doesn't make sense to delay his arrival any longer than after a super-2 status issue because of Jose Ramirez, a guy who could still get a lot of playing time with Lindor as the every day SS..
 
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elcheato said:
Well then I guess my issue is with Ramirez then, and not Francona.

How is it rushing Lindor when the organization has basically said that he is ready? Him being on the roster would improve the team. Mike Aviles has played in 4 of the 6 games so far, so it's not as if Ramirez wouldn't play, either. In fact, having Lindor up here would essentially stop Aviles from playing, which would be a gigantic plus for this team, considering it isn't an exaggeration to call him one of the worst semi-regular players in the entire league.

Maybe Lindor might not do "much" better as a rookie, but at some point he has to be a rookie.. You can continue to delay that, and delay his potential for a rookie struggle, but no amount of time in Triple A is going to suddenly going to change that. He's going to be our SS for the next decade, as you say, so it doesn't make sense to delay his arrival any longer than after a super-2 status issue because of Jose Ramirez, a guy who could still get a lot of playing time with Lindor as the every day SS..
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Can Ramirez, or Lindor for that matter, play in the OF? Cause that's where Aviles has found the majority of his playing time so far. Pretty poor point to make there.

Look man, I want Lindor up as much as the next Indians fan. Just right now it makes no sense to me. Everyone is freaking out about the start to the year and is looking for options to change it...Lindor would do little to change it IMO right now, but people in here seem to think he'd change the outlook of the season on a dime. Also, who do you pull off the roster right now to make room for him? The Gomes injury severely hurts our flexibility to make such a move because now we need as many RH bats as possible with our best one hurt for a while, so Raburn is sticking around. We need as many bullpen arms as possible as well right now. So who do you remove for him?

Keep him down in AAA playing every day until it makes sense to bring him up. That's all I'm saying. Not saying he isn't ready. Not saying he isn't good enough to be better or contribute more than Ramirez. Not saying that Ramirez is a godsend to the SS position in Cleveland. Just don't make a move to bring him up just for the sake of moving him up.
 
BimboColesHair said:
Can Ramirez, or Lindor for that matter, play in the OF? Cause that's where Aviles has found the majority of his playing time so far. Pretty poor point to make there.

Look man, I want Lindor up as much as the next Indians fan. Just right now it makes no sense to me. Everyone is freaking out about the start to the year and is looking for options to change it...Lindor would do little to change it IMO right now, but people in here seem to think he'd change the outlook of the season on a dime. Also, who do you pull off the roster right now to make room for him? The Gomes injury severely hurts our flexibility to make such a move because now we need as many RH bats as possible with our best one hurt for a while, so Raburn is sticking around. We need as many bullpen arms as possible as well right now. So who do you remove for him?

Keep him down in AAA playing every day until it makes sense to bring him up. That's all I'm saying. Not saying he isn't ready. Not saying he isn't good enough to be better or contribute more than Ramirez. Not saying that Ramirez is a godsend to the SS position in Cleveland. Just don't make a move to bring him up just for the sake of moving him up.
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Mike Aviles can't play the outfield either, but that hasn't stopped Francona from playing him out there.

I'm not talking about right now. I was countering the idea of holding him down their well into the summer, which wasn't your exact wording, but it seemed implied, but I could be wrong. I understand waiting for the Super-2 cut off, that makes complete sense, but that is usually in early June. This has nothing to do with "changing the outlook of the season", it has to do with having the best guys on the roster, and not keeping your best prospect, and potentially one of your better players down in Triple A.

Again, I don't care that he's down now, it makes financial sense, if you keep him down there into July or August, now you're just potentially costing your team wins for nothing.

As far as who to send down, as I alluded to before, Aviles is awful. DFA him when the time comes to call up Lindor. If the Indians plan to move Ramirez to 2B, and send Kipnis out to RF (which I think is the scenario that makes the most sense given how awful Murphy is in the field, and doesn't come close to making up for it with his bat), then you can DFA Murphy for him.

All I'm saying is the time it makes sense to bring him up is early June. It's not making the move just to make a move. It's making a move to try to improve the team.
 
elcheato said:
Mike Aviles can't play the outfield either, but that hasn't stopped Francona from playing him out there.

I'm not talking about right now. I was countering the idea of holding him down their well into the summer, which wasn't your exact wording, but it seemed implied. I understand waiting for the Super-2 cut off, that makes complete sense, but that is usually in early June. This has nothing to do with "changing the outlook of the season", it has to do with having the best guys on the roster, and not keeping your best prospect, and potentially one of your better players down in Triple A.

Again, I don't care that he's down now, it makes financial sense, if you keep him down there into July or August, now you're just potentially costing your team wins for nothing.

As far as who to send down, as I alluded to before, Aviles is awful. DFA him when the time comes to call up Lindor. If the Indians plan to move Ramirez to 2B, and send Kipnis out to RF (which I think is the scenario that makes the most sense given how awful Murphy is in the field, and doesn't come close to making up for it with his bat), then you can DFA Murphy for him.

All I'm saying is the time it makes sense to bring him up is early June. It's not making the move just to make a move. It's making a move to try to improve the team.
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Super 2 cutoff is probably in a few days or weeks. 172 days equals a full service year, so once you pass that mark you're good to go.

And I only brought up the summer because of the Gomes injury. It's going to throw off what I think was the initial plan with regards to Lindor (sending the additional bullpen guy down, DFAing Raburn, activating Swisher, and eventually calling up Lindor in May).

And you keep throwing around labels on players like "awful" and "not very good" when those labels don't exactly apply to the guys you are giving them too...pretty lazy analysis on your part. Aviles isn't awful, and he hasn't been awful since he's been in Cleveland. You don't get rid of a bench player who can pretty much play every position on the field, who most importantly hits from the right side of the plate on a team devoid of those options.

As for your idea for moving Kipnis into the OF this year and cutting bait with Murphy, not happening. You don't make that move in the middle of the year. Guy went through all of his winter workouts and all of spring training getting all of his reps at 2nd and has been out of the outfield for the better part of the decade. You don't just throw him out there in the middle of the year, that's something you change over the winter and spring.

So again, where is the move to make room for him? Raburn would have made sense before the Gomes injury. The extra bullpen arm would have made sense before they became over worked.

This is all moot regardless. Lindor will be up this year, no doubt in my mind. Just I think what they are going through is slowing that down, not speeding it up, which is very unfortunate for us who want to see him in Cleveland.
 
The Indians are still undefeated in games that Raburn doesn't play.
 
BimboColesHair said:
Super 2 cutoff is probably in a few days or weeks. 172 days equals a full service year, so once you pass that mark you're good to go.

And I only brought up the summer because of the Gomes injury. It's going to throw off what I think was the initial plan with regards to Lindor (sending the additional bullpen guy down, DFAing Raburn, activating Swisher, and eventually calling up Lindor in May).

And you keep throwing around labels on players like "awful" and "not very good" when those labels don't exactly apply to the guys you are giving them too...pretty lazy analysis on your part. Aviles isn't awful, and he hasn't been awful since he's been in Cleveland. You don't get rid of a bench player who can pretty much play every position on the field, who most importantly hits from the right side of the plate on a team devoid of those options.

As for your idea for moving Kipnis into the OF this year and cutting bait with Murphy, not happening. You don't make that move in the middle of the year. Guy went through all of his winter workouts and all of spring training getting all of his reps at 2nd and has been out of the outfield for the better part of the decade. You don't just throw him out there in the middle of the year, that's something you change over the winter and spring.

So again, where is the move to make room for him? Raburn would have made sense before the Gomes injury. The extra bullpen arm would have made sense before they became over worked.

This is all moot regardless. Lindor will be up this year, no doubt in my mind. Just I think what they are going through is slowing that down, not speeding it up, which is very unfortunate for us who want to see him in Cleveland.
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If you want numbers to go with those labels that's fine.

Mike Aviles' hitting slash last year was .247/.273/.343, the year prior was .252/.282/.368. According to fangraphs, last year he had a negative impact at every positive he played defensively, aside from shortstop, the position where he is going to see very little time this year given Ramirez' hold on the starting job, and if Ramirez were to get hurt, they almost certainly would call up Lindor instead of giving the spot to Aviles. For players with at least 300 at bats, he had the 28th worst WAR in the MLB (fangraphs). Only 9 of the players above him had less at bats. Using the same threshold, he had the 13th worst OBP in the league.

I'll concede that moving Kipnis to RF this year isn't in the cards, but I don't believe moving an athletic guy like Kipnis out there is such a bad move, given David Murphy graded out as the 2nd worst RF in the league last year (defensively).

I cut bait with Aviles. I don't care that he can play the outfield as well as the infield. He's atrocious in the outfield (the numbers overwhelmingly support this). Sands and Raburn both play the outfield, it wouldn't be necessary to have a 3rd guy who can do it as well. The primary DH (Moss) also plays RF, so despite that fact that Aviles has the ability and experience to stand out there and cover zero ground, it wouldn't be needed. Ramirez assumes the role of utility infielder if you're keeping Kipnis at 2nd.
 
BimboColesHair said:
Who gives a shit about attendance? And the bullpen looked a lot better today. 2 runs in 7.2 IP ain't exactly bad.
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Attendance = Revenue = Owner Willingness = Make Roster Improvements
 
AMC said:
Attendance = Revenue = Owner Willingness = Make Roster Improvements
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One series isn't going to magically bring the fans back...it amazes me that people think that way in here..."they lost in front of a big crowd, now there will be no more big crowds" might be the dumbest thing constantly brought up in here...
 
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