Kyrie Irving

Chris said:

I don't know. What GM wouldn't? Neither of us have talked to the GMs...so...again, why say it?

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Chris, simply put, I don't think there's a team in the NBA that, if put in a position to pick between one of these two players, picks John Wall..

Let's go through just a few of the contenders...

1) GSW? Obviously not, Steph and Kyrie are very similar in more respects than not.

2) HOU? Doubt it, for many reasons. Analytics rules this team, and Kyrie is by far the better analytical bet than Wall. Harden is also an isolation scorer, so there's no need for Wall's skillset. Kyrie and Harden would be the best backcourt in the NBA by far and virtually unstoppable. Wall can't shoot....

3) Clippers... Maybe? This is the one team I think might take a shot at Wall over Irving, but to be honest, I still don't see it. CP3 is a phenomenal shooter. How do you replace his threat on offense, which keeps defenses honest, with John Wall? I don't think you can... I think even Doc would rather have Kyrie.

4) Portland? No... not worth talking about.

5) San Antonio? No, they don't need Wall.. They need Parker.. Parker and Irving are very similar players.

6) Grizzlies? Doubt it.. They need scoring, shooting, and versatility. Defense is important, but I think they'd trade up their perimeter defense for some much needed scoring punch.

7) Cleveland? Would you rather have Wall than Irving?

8) Toronto? They need every point they can get from Lowry - how do you replace that with Wall? Again, they need instant offense from the 1.. No chance.

9) Atlanta? Same as Toronto, same reason... Defense might make them think twice, but I doubt it.

10) Chicago? Possibly? Hard to say, but even this team I think would prefer a player who they can plug into the offense, on relatively low usage, and put up highly efficient scoring while still generating assists at a higher than league average clip.

And honestly, I think I'll stop here because I pretty much know what you're response is gonna be...

But the point being is that Kyrie Irving produces far far more for his teams than Wall; and I doubt most teams (any?) would take Wall over Irving simply because he generates more assists and is a somewhat better defender.

Irving is a franchise player, with MVP potential. He could potentially surpass Steph Curry in a very short period of time. It's a shame some of us don't see that.

He could surpass Curry? Curry does everything Irving does just as well or better, and also facilitates much better. Obviously who knows what will happen in the future but like, what is this being based on?

Chris said:

He could surpass Curry? Curry does everything Irving does just as well or better, and also facilitates much better. Obviously who knows what will happen in the future but like, what is this being based on?

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Going out on a limb, but probably age. Based on past performance and sustained growth as a player, Kyrie should be pretty great when he's 26.

Chris said:

He could surpass Curry? Curry does everything Irving does just as well or better, and also facilitates much better. Obviously who knows what will happen in the future but like, what is this being based on?

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First off, Curry doesn't do everything Irving does just as well or better.. That's silly.

Irving is the better ball-handler and a better finisher; he's also more clutch... LeBron and many others continually remind everyone of this. Irving might be the best ball-handler and finisher in the history of the league and those are the words of many commentators and other athletes in the sport.

As far as Curry, yes, he's substantially better than Irving right now, but he's also 4 full years older.

But to answer your question, if Irving were to make a similar statistical jump as Curry did, or had a similar growth curve, Irving would statistically surpass Curry.

Is it assured? Of course not, but that's why one has to evaluate potential. I think Irving, like Curry, has MVP potential. Irving, like Curry, is a franchise player. They are very similar players, yet Curry is entering his prime; Irving is nowhere near it, yet is still in the conversation.

Think about it.

gourimoko said:

Anyone watching the Wizards/Raptors will understand why Kyrie is so much better than John Wall... Can you imagine if teams actually gave Irving a "cushion" because he can't shoot?

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Which still doesn't mean the Wizards would be better with Irving over Wall because unlike the Cavs, the Wizards need playmaking from their PG spot. Wall's defense doesn't hurt either ...

We're using "more clutch?" Really...?

Have you seen potential for elite court vision and distribution from Kyrie? I haven't. I think he's an elite scorer and that is what he will be. It's hard to imagine him getting better in that category but he's still young. Have we seen a lot of players who "develop"
elite court vision over time and become elite facilitators? I don't think he ever reaches Curry on that level.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Wall. I think it's much closer than you do. Just 3 months ago, I think almost everybody would have said Wall.

Chris said:

I guaranfuckingtee you are wrong about your "Every GM!" statement, and neither of us can back it up so why say it?

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Well, we know what the GM's were saying at the beginning of the season:

Who is the best point guard in the NBA?
1. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 71.4%
2. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City -- 10.7%
3. Tony Parker, San Antonio -- 7.1%
Also receiving votes: Stephen Curry, Golden State; Damian Lillard, Portland; Derrick Rose, Chicago
Last year: Chris Paul -- 70.0%

Jon said:

Which still doesn't mean the Wizards would be better with Irving over Wall because unlike the Cavs, the Wizards need playmaking from their PG spot. Wall's defense doesn't hurt either ...

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Wizards could've used someone playing at the 1 to score.

It's actually an odd thing to say really. I mean, to say that the Wizards wouldn't be better off statistically, over the course of the season, by swapping Wall with less net production than with Irving with greater net statistical production.

Sure you can make the case that Wall is the better floor general, but again, for some reason I doubt that quality will win them anything.

Irving's net production has him leading all Cavaliers, arguably the best team in the NBA, in win shares (tied with LeBron), and leading with Offensive Win Shares (tied with no one).

Either guys aren't watching him play, or I dunno, but I mean, seriously, this conversation is fucking silly..... Even Bill Simmons is on this kid's bandwagon, what the fuck more is needed?

the real question is, what does a rich man boobies look like?

gourimoko said:

As far as Curry, yes, he's substantially better than Irving right now, but he's also 4 full years older.

But to answer your question, if Irving were to make a similar statistical jump as Curry did, or had a similar growth curve, Irving would statistically surpass Curry.

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It's very possible, but you don't just take potential for granted you have to look for growth, and IMO this season has been primarily about getting Kyrie back on track.

So, we'll just have to see where he goes from here.

He has shown a tendency to step-up to the moment, and sometimes that's all that matters.

gourimoko said:

Irving's net production has him leading all Cavaliers, arguably the best team in the NBA, in win shares (tied with LeBron), and leading with Offensive Win Shares (tied with no one).

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How were his win-shares last year?

Hint: crap stat...

Chris said:

We're using "more clutch?" Really...?

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I'm guessing you're not aware of clutch statistics, or..?

Chris said:

Have you seen potential for elite court vision and distribution from Kyrie? I haven't.

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Yes, in FIBA play, and I wasn't the only one either.

Chris said:

I think he's an elite scorer and that is what he will be. It's hard to imagine him getting better in that category but he's still young. Have we seen a lot of players who "develop"
elite court vision over time and become elite facilitators? I don't think he ever reaches Curry on that level.

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I dunno how you've been paying attention to either player if you think this.

Honestly, the two guys' career paths have been very similar.

Chris said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on Wall. I think it's much closer than you do. Just 3 months ago, I think almost everybody would have said Wall.

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You're right, people on this board love to flip-flop.. I've been telling guys for 4 years, Irving is a superstar in the making.

Chris said:

He could surpass Curry? Curry does everything Irving does just as well or better, and also facilitates much better. Obviously who knows what will happen in the future but like, what is this being based on?

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Kyrie's first four seasons in the NBA vs. Stephen Curry's first four seasons.

Jon said:

Well, we know what the GM's were saying at the beginning of the season:

Who is the best point guard in the NBA?
1. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 71.4%
2. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City -- 10.7%
3. Tony Parker, San Antonio -- 7.1%
Also receiving votes: Stephen Curry, Golden State; Damian Lillard, Portland; Derrick Rose, Chicago
Last year: Chris Paul -- 70.0%

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Derrick Rose, lol.

Also, I don't see Wall on that list, which is what you quoted was referring to.

Curry is a better shooter, always will be, but as a natural scorer, I think Kyrie is a better gifted scorer than Curry. It's definitely not out of the realm he could surpass Curry as a player.

Will he for sure? I have no idea. Right now, yes, Curry is better. But Curry is obviously older too.