The Age of Migration: The EU and the US in Crisis

More details have come out about the family of the little Syrian boy who drowned.

As it turns out, his family was not fleeing the Syrian civil war. They'd actually left Syria three years ago, and had been living in Turkey ever since. The father was trying to get to Europe to get better dental care, and hopefully to make more money as a construction worker.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/09/07/story-begins-to-unravel-about-drowned-syrian-boy/

Now, none of that lessens the tragedy, but it shines a spotlight on the true scope of the problem. This is not simply a case of potentially a few million refugees fleeing a war zone to escape being killed.

These are essentially economic refugees who want to go to the wealthier nations of Europe to improve their fortunes. And the issue there is that the number of people who could improve their lives by heading to the wealthier nations of Europe goes well beyond Syria. The number of people who could improve their economi fortunes by heading to German, Frnace, or Sweden numbers not in the millions, but in the billions. And it's not just a short-term problem. It is one that very well might never end.

No wonder some Europeans are having second thoughts as to whether or not to keep admitting these people

The Human Q-Tip said:

This is not simply a case of potentially a few million refugees fleeing a war zone to escape being killed.

These are essentially economic refugees who want to go to the wealthier nations of Europe to improve their fortunes.

No wonder some Europeans are having second thoughts as to whether or not to keep admitting these people

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The bolded is a flat out lie.

gourimoko said:

The bolded is a flat out lie.

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Well, I wouldn't say that it is a flat out lie, but more like a half truth. It's been reported that a lot of the migrants are in fact economic refugees.

Economic migration was the primary driver of movement for many years and not nearly in the numbers we see now (though Polish migration to the UK was as heavy). Not so anymore though there are still many migrating for work related reasons.

I am of half a mind to arm and train many of those young men, once their women and children are safe in the EU, to go back and fight those ISIS bastards. They should want to fight for their homes. This should be an Arab fight and I see a lot of military age men fleeing.

No Regard said:

Well, I wouldn't say that it is a flat out lie, but more like a half truth. It's been reported that a lot of the migrants are in fact economic refugees.

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It's been reported, but it's totally false. I have family in the region, and this is all over Arab media. It's just, sad, that anyone could think this.

There's now several million refugees, the vast vast majority in other Arab nations. Those folks didn't flock to Europe.

Those people are fleeing death. They aren't running to Europe to be low-class refugees.

Honestly man, it's an absurd argument at best. These people are not going through this to make money.

gourimoko said:

It's been reported, but it's totally false. I have family in the region, and this is all over Arab media. It's just, sad, that anyone could think this.

There's now several million refugees, the vast vast majority in other Arab nations. Those folks didn't flock to Europe.

Those people are fleeing death. They aren't running to Europe to be low-class refugees.

Honestly man, it's an absurd argument at best. These people are not going through this to make money.

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Well, as you say yourself, we are talking about several million refugees here. I think it is more absurd to claim that none of them are looking for any economical gains, than to say that some of them actually might.

No Regard said:

Well, I wouldn't say that it is a flat out lie, but more like a half truth.

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Eh?

This shouldnt even need to be said, but there are a shit-ton of migrants from Africa and the Middle East who are not from Syria. And millions in Europe already who came before ISIS even existed at all. So quite clearly, all those people were not, and are not, motivated only by that war. Some are. But if Germany, etc., start adopting a policy of accommodating anyone who arrives on a boat looking pathetic, it's going to be impossible (or at least impractical) to separate actual war refugees from economic refugees.

This particular family was not considered war refugees by the U.N. because they'd
been living in Turkey, not Syria. Yet despite that, the image of that boy has sparked an outcry to admit more. And the point is if you extend that policy of accommodation to those looking for a better economic future, there's basically no end to it. It's the boat people, etc., all over again.

People have been fleeing for Europe a long time, and for the same reasons people leave Latin America to come to the U.S. -- economics.

No Regard said:

Well, as you say yourself, we are talking about several million refugees here. I think it is more absurd to claim that none of them are looking for any economical gains, than to say that some of them actually might.

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I think we're both talking about general cases here. I don't think I said "none," just as I don't think you implied all.

I think the point is that if you look at what's happening in Syria, in detail and not in the confines of abstract thought, then it makes little to no sense to conclude this mass migration is for economic gain. It's just not reflective of reality, and ignores the very real issues happening in both Syria and Iraq.

You've got American media outlets, particularly Fox News (again just as @Adam referenced is happening in the UK), openly calling Muslims terrorists and showing videos of people praising God and stating directly below "Terrifying Chant!"

It's fear-mongering.

Well, let's just say that I agree with both of you, @gourimoko and @The Human Q-Tip .

You are both half right, which makes the two of you put together whole right. Isn't that beautiful?

The Human Q-Tip said:

Eh?

This shouldnt even need to be said, but there are a shit-ton of migrants from Africa and the Middle East who are not from Syria. And millions in Europe already who came before ISIS even existed at all. So quite clearly, all those people were not, and are not, motivated only by that war. Some are. But if Germany, etc., start adopting a policy of accommodating anyone who arrives on a boat looking pathetic, it's going to be impossible (or at least impractical) to separate actual war refugees from economic refugees.

This particular family was not considered war refugees by the U.N. because they'd
been living in Turkey, not Syria. Yet despite that, the image of that boy has sparked an outcry to admit more. And the point is if you extend that policy of accommodation to those looking for a better economic future, there's basically no end to it. It's the boat people, etc., all over again.

People have been fleeing for Europe a long time, and for the same reasons people leave Latin America to come to the U.S. -- economics.

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Stop.

Stop with the bullshit. The twisting of facts with nonsense, and the filling of posts with empty arguments.

We're not talking about migrants throughout history from Africa and the Middle East. That's the point.

We're talking about refugees, numbering over 4 million in the past 3 years, now flooding out of the region running for their lives from ISIS on one side and Assad on the other.



That vast majority of these people have no sought refuge in Europe. This isn't about seeking opportunity, it's about finding safety.

It's a vile lie that shouldn't be repeated.

No Regard said:

Well, let's just say that I agree with both of you, @gourimoko and @The Human Q-Tip .

You are both half right, which makes the two of you put together whole right. Isn't that beautiful?

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I'll appeal to your intellect, No Regard.

In all honesty, do you think even half, let's say even a quarter, of the Syrian refugees are seeking the economic benefits of being a refugee living in Europe? Or is it more accurate to say they are running from the impossible conditions in their home country?

gourimoko said:

I'll appeal to your intellect, No Regard.

In all honesty, do you think even half, let's say even a quarter, of the Syrian refugees are seeking the economic benefits of being a refugee living in Europe? Or is it more accurate to say they are running from the impossible conditions in their home country?

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Shit, I sincerely don't know. All I know is that war must end. That's the only solution.

No Regard said:

Well, let's just say that I agree with both of you,
You are both half right, which makes the two of you put together whole right. Isn't that beautiful?

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I'm honestly curious what I said that you think is "half wrong".

I didn't claim that every person trying to get into wealthier European countries is doing so for economic reasons. But it is inarguable - as demonstrated by the millions from Africa and the ME who already live there - that there were economic migrants prior to the Syrian War.

So unless someone is going to argue that all that economic migration magically ceased the moment the Syrian War began, then there are still economic migrants trying to get into Europe. Do you think that's untrue?

And the point is simple - once the door cracks, and borders become overwhelmed and less secure with actual war refugees, it's going to be easier for economic refugees/migrants to slip through as well.

Fuck, the father of that boy admitted on his own that he left Turkey because he could get better dental care and make more money in Germany. And it's not just me - the U.N. doesn't even consider such people war refugees.

Hehe, right now I feel like I'm being caught between a rock and a hard place.

I'm just trying to build some bridges man, but it's closing in on sunrise where I'm at, so it's a bit late for diplomatics at this point.

All I'm saying is that people were and are migrating for both reasons (and probably a hell of a lot more), when I had the impression that the two of you were arguing about either/or. Simple as that.

No Regard said:

Hehe, right now I feel like I'm being caught between a rock and a hard place.

I'm just trying to build some bridges man, but it's closing in on sunrise where I'm at, so it's a bit late for diplomatics at this point.

All I'm saying is that people were and are migrating for both reasons (and probably a hell of a lot more), when I had the impression that the two of you were arguing about either/or. Simple as that.

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Q-Tip pretends not to read my posts so he doesn't have to defend his positions; even though he references almost everything I say.