Snow for Jackson on the table?

JonFromVA said:

As slow as Wally? That's pretty brutal, comparing him to a guy who's knees are shot after multiple operations and is carrying a lot more weight. What are you basing that on? That he's 6'8" and not the ideal 6'6" and now over 30 and hence at risk for a drop off? Or did he look slower to you this past season?

I'm sure Mike Brown would love to work with a guy who at least has adequate lateral movement, but we also know in his defense that he can take advantage of height to make up for a lack of it.

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People here are trying to use both sides of this arguement against him. It simply doesn't work that way. Either he wouldn't fit our offense cause he fits into the "run and gun offense" or he's not able to run up and down the court (logging huge minutes) even though he did it for GS :chuckles:.

This is getting rediculous, stephen jackson has shown no sine of declining or slowing down. If he did, then why is he logging more minutes for GS then ever before last season? At 39.1!

For those comparing Stephen to Larry: All Stephens averages are higher... except ppg (where they tie), steals, and mmg (.1 differace). Stephen Jackson can finish better inside, hasn't had injury problems, and is one year younger. His EFF is about 6 points higher then Larry, his roland rating is a little less then 3 more and pretty much everything accounts for Jackson being an upgrade to hughes (though a small one).

Also his contract is much more friendly (expire at the same time):
Jackson: 7.1 M
year 2: 7.65 M

Hughes: year 1: 12.8 M
year 2: 13.65 M

LBJAlltheWay said:

Why isn't this thread closed? I thought this rumor was dubbed to have no merit to it.



Stephen Jackson is a good defender and a staright up baller. People critisize Wade's defense, they talked about it in the olympics.

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What does Wade's defense have anything to do with what I said? I think you read it wrong.

I realize that Jackson is a very capable defender, I was just stating that defense at the 2 spot should be the number 1 thing we look at. I think Sasha can fill that role like Max said -- but we need to wait.

Arguing over a player who clearly is not comming here. Some of you people need helmets on 24/7.

I agree that this thread should be closed, but I'll use this thread to ask a question to someone who knows the answer.

It's apparent that Ferry is shopping the Snow/ 1st round pick package to seek a possible trade. Does this trade need to happen before the regular season since Snow's salary is valued at $7.3 million. I know if he retires, you get a trade exception for half of Snow's salary. So, in essence, wouldn't Snow's value drop when he officially retires? So the team acquiring Snow would be getting a trade exception of $3.65 million when he retires with them, getting rid of the player whose salary is around the same as Snow's, and also the first round pick included in the deal......right?

(I'm sorry if these questions were asked earlier at some point....I searched forever)

RyGuy25 said:

I agree that this thread should be closed, but I'll use this thread to ask a question to someone who knows the answer.

It's apparent that Ferry is shopping the Snow/ 1st round pick package to seek a possible trade. Does this trade need to happen before the regular season since Snow's salary is valued at $7.3 million. I know if he retires, you get a trade exception for half of Snow's salary. So, in essence, wouldn't Snow's value drop when he officially retires? So the team acquiring Snow would be getting a trade exception of $3.65 million when he retires with them, getting rid of the player whose salary is around the same as Snow's, and also the first round pick included in the deal......right?

(I'm sorry if these questions were asked earlier at some point....I searched forever)

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His only savings to any team not cleveland would be the actually cash the insurance company would pick up. If he retires a cav, he comes off of our books, thus savings us luxury tax also for a total of a whopping 15 mill in savings. That is huge, even for a billonare like Gilbert. Now if we trade him, the insurance will pick up his salary still since the policy is tradeble, but nba rules state his salary remains on the books. Only the team he played for the previous year would get such a benifit. (Cavs)

All that said, is why those most knowledgable about the cba and how it works believe most likely snow will retire a cav. If he is traded it will be because it got us back a all star level player. Redd and Vince I think qulaify, I dont see S-Jax being enough of an upgrade to qualify. Basically paying S-jax 15 million (savings) plus his salary of 13 million.

The opportunity cost to get Jackson would be 28 million for 2 years and a lost 1st round pick. Seems a bit much to me. If he is the piece that puts you over the top and makes you the favorite to win it all you do it,....but he is not. Not sure if he is a significant upgrade over wally to be honest. (only slight upgrade imo)

Lee3370 said:

His only savings to any team not cleveland would be the actually cash the insurance company would pick up. If he retires a cav, he comes off of our books, thus savings us luxury tax also for a total of a whopping 15 mill in savings. That is huge, even for a billonare like Gilbert. Now if we trade him, the insurance will pick up his salary still since the policy is tradeble, but nba rules state his salary remains on the books. Only the team he played for the previous year would get such a benifit. (Cavs)

All that said, is why those most knowledgable about the cba and how it works believe most likely snow will retire a cav. If he is traded it will be because it got us back a all star level player. Redd and Vince I think qulaify, I dont see S-Jax being enough of an upgrade to qualify. Basically paying S-jax 15 million (savings) plus his salary of 13 million.

The opportunity cost to get Jackson would be 28 million for 2 years and a lost 1st round pick. Seems a bit much to me. If he is the piece that puts you over the top and makes you the favorite to win it all you do it,....but he is not. Not sure if he is a significant upgrade over wally to be honest. (only slight upgrade imo)

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Wally of last year?

I'm not sold on Jackson one way or the other, but given how poor our SG situation has been, it's hard to say he wouldn't be an upgrade. I can certainly see how Wally, Sasha, Boobie, or West might give us what we need from the spot - but until they show up and get the job done ... who knows?

Interestingly, Jackson is 2 years younger than James Posey and has a lot more left in the tank.

Anyway, if it's true we're shopping Snow's contract, it's very interesting because it means Gilbert is willing to use every last asset to improve the team. I'd hoped in the past we'd make moves with what we had so we could build up some assets for future trades. Using Snow's contract would be doing exactly that. Whatever we're able to bring in with it will become a contract we can later turn around and deal or it'll free up another player to be dealt.

We also need to keep in mind that Snow's "retirement" has been taking a long time to go through, and it's possible it'll be denied and he'll have to "play" this season.

Would you guys rather have Jackson starting at SG for us, or Snow resting his knees on the bench?

Actually, we could end up with both, if Snow's contract was bought out and he signed on to be a bench coach.

JonFromVA said:

I'm not sold on Jackson one way or the other, but given how poor our SG situation has been, it's hard to say he wouldn't be an upgrade. I can certainly see how Wally, Sasha, Boobie, or West might give us what we need from the spot - but until they show up and get the job done ... who knows?

Interestingly, Jackson is 2 years younger than James Posey and has a lot more left in the tank.

Anyway, if it's true we're shopping Snow's contract, it's very interesting because it means Gilbert is willing to use every last asset to improve the team. I'd hoped in the past we'd make moves with what we had so we could build up some assets for future trades. Using Snow's contract would be doing exactly that. Whatever we're able to bring in with it will become a contract we can later turn around and deal or it'll free up another player to be dealt.

We also need to keep in mind that Snow's "retirement" has been taking a long time to go through, and it's possible it'll be denied and he'll have to "play" this season.

Would you guys rather have Jackson starting at SG for us, or Snow resting his knees on the bench?

Actually, we could end up with both, if Snow's contract was bought out and he signed on to be a bench coach.

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Turk3d said that Snow already has an aggreement to be a coach for us. I dont know where he got this though.
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=834854&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=225.

by turk3d on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:04 am

Because he's already got an agreement to retire and become a Cavs coach. I don't know how much they've agreed to pay him but I imagine it's long term. As a coach, he'd certainly want them to have more cap leeway in making some kind of a deal which they hope will improve them significantly.

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Some seem to think that it would be illegal though.

St.Nick on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:52 am

Thats salary cap circumnavigation. If Snow retired right after being traded you can bet that the league would investigate. That would risk negating the deal, leaving us with an unhappy S-Jax and a likely penalty of two less first round picks. Yippee!!

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JonFromVA said:

I'm not sold on Jackson one way or the other, but given how poor our SG situation has been, it's hard to say he wouldn't be an upgrade. I can certainly see how Wally, Sasha, Boobie, or West might give us what we need from the spot - but until they show up and get the job done ... who knows?

Interestingly, Jackson is 2 years younger than James Posey and has a lot more left in the tank.

Anyway, if it's true we're shopping Snow's contract, it's very interesting because it means Gilbert is willing to use every last asset to improve the team. I'd hoped in the past we'd make moves with what we had so we could build up some assets for future trades. Using Snow's contract would be doing exactly that. Whatever we're able to bring in with it will become a contract we can later turn around and deal or it'll free up another player to be dealt.

We also need to keep in mind that Snow's "retirement" has been taking a long time to go through, and it's possible it'll be denied and he'll have to "play" this season.

Would you guys rather have Jackson starting at SG for us, or Snow resting his knees on the bench?

Actually, we could end up with both, if Snow's contract was bought out and he signed on to be a bench coach.

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I read somewhere that typically these retirements do take a long time to go through. The trade exemption we are seeking might never come through. Those are hard to get, the only thing really holding up the medical retirement i am sure is the insurance company not wanting to pay out, so they will do their research. Another thing on the exception. It is granted to find a replacement player, but the league might find that west and mo were replacement players and would have been ahead of him on the depth chart. I have a feeling we wont be getting the exception. But the retirement itself, yeah, but it usually takes almost a year is my understanding. Basically the team will be reimbursed for his salary. Remember, luxury tax isnt paid until the end of the season, so the league does not need to rush.

JonFromVA said:

Would you guys rather have Jackson starting at SG for us, or Snow resting his knees on the bench?

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Tha'ts not the way I'd phrase it.

I'd much rather have the team retain draft picks and the flexability to find a deal down the road that clearly improves the team instead of wasting a bunch of resources now on a deal that reduces options for the next year, creates a log jam at SF without significantly improving the shooting guard situation , and does nothing for the front court---

After all, the Cavs didn't even have to give up a draft pick to get Mo, and he was a significant upgrade at the PG spot. Don't see why we'd give up 1 or 2 draft picks to get an SF with a volitle personaility and average ability.

This is what will happen.


1.

In 5 weeks when the pre season starts we'll all stop talking about Vince, Curry, S-jax etc, and worry about rotations, there will be people crying start JJ! Start JJ! There will be people arguing about the starters, times, Mike Brown's rotations and so forth

2.

The starting line up will be Mo, Wally, Lebron, Andy, Z (If we dont trade for a starting PF )
Everyone will be all hyped up because of Mo, Mo will score 15 points and dish out 8 assists, everyone will be praising Ferry calling him a genious. JJ will see 10 minutes of playing time and score 12 points and block a shot with authority. People like me will come in here saying JJ will be getting 30 minutes a game by the end of the season, and then be proven wrong when JJ will be riding the pine.

3.

Lebron will score 40 points in his first game, lots of cutting to the basket, posting up, hitting his free throws ( 18-20 I must say ) He will be 3-4 from three land, a couple fast break dunks and and1ns. With the clock running down in the 3rd Q Lebron will dance around the key, take a step back and pop a fadeaway over KG, which will be following be Paul Pierce doing his best to not piss him self, he wishes he could do that.

4.

Okay, 4, we're finally here. After all this hooplah surrounding Mo, JJ and Lebron ( Lets say about 10 games ) we're all going to look at the box score, and see that Wally played 34 minutes, hit 4-5 from 3 land had 3 assists 4 rebounds with only 2 TOs. He was also 5-5 from the free throw line! That's 17 points for Wally! Woah! Wally is shooting 48% from three land! Woah! Wally's averages are 14 ppg, 5 rebounds and 93% from the line! WOAH! Hmm... maybe we don't need to trade for a stud SG, maybe Wally, will step up. Think about that for a second.

I'm not saying anything, but I'm just saying.

St.Nick on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:52 am

Thats salary cap circumnavigation. If Snow retired right after being traded you can bet that the league would investigate. That would risk negating the deal, leaving us with an unhappy S-Jax and a likely penalty of two less first round picks. Yippee!!

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I don't know... that was actually how Ferry ended his career. He was with San Antonio as a player, got traded to Indiana while his contract was expiring, then he immediately retired and joined to Spurs front office. If the league comes knocking on our door, Ferry would have precedence to counter that argument.

BTW: MYoung: Thanks for catching my slip about Pritchard... I have no idea why I got him mixed up with Wark... old age is really cruel to the memory.

Douglar said:

Tha'ts not the way I'd phrase it.

I'd much rather have the team retain draft picks and the flexability to find a deal down the road that clearly improves the team instead of wasting a bunch of resources now on a deal that reduces options for the next year, creates a log jam at SF without significantly improving the shooting guard situation , and does nothing for the front court---

After all, the Cavs didn't even have to give up a draft pick to get Mo, and he was a significant upgrade at the PG spot. Don't see why we'd give up 1 or 2 draft picks to get an SF with a volitle personaility and average ability.

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I try not to put too much stock in the details when talking about an off the wall rumor like this. What if there is no pick? What if it's a 2nd round pick? etc. We don't know. What if it isn't even Snow, but some of those other guards who would be clogging up the bench if we got Jackson? Or what if we trade a pick for Jackson, but then turn around and trade Sasha or West for a better pick?

So why do you think Jackson would just create logjam at SF? Why don't you think he could play SG?

Or is your preference to just hold out for a more better SG?

If we didn't have to trade any major assets for Jackson we could do that too (depending how Hickson develops), but if we did upgrade at SG without giving up any of our major assets we'd be in even better shape to pursue a big man.

We've seen LeBron's supporting cast fall flat over and over when he needs them the most. The more guys we can get who can make plays when the pressure is at it's highest, the better.

DeeThree said:

This is what will happen.


1.

In 5 weeks when the pre season starts we'll all stop talking about Vince, Curry, S-jax etc, and worry about rotations, there will be people crying start JJ! Start JJ! There will be people arguing about the starters, times, Mike Brown's rotations and so forth

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With Heath still around do you actually think this is true? We'll have more trade rumors until the deadline.

2.

The starting line up will be Mo, Wally, Lebron, Andy, Z (If we dont trade for a starting PF )
Everyone will be all hyped up because of Mo, Mo will score 15 points and dish out 8 assists, everyone will be praising Ferry calling him a genious. JJ will see 10 minutes of playing time and score 12 points and block a shot with authority. People like me will come in here saying JJ will be getting 30 minutes a game by the end of the season, and then be proven wrong when JJ will be riding the pine.

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I disagree, Big Ben willl start. They want the spark of the bench in Andy. Plus it's similar to why they took forever to put Hughes on the bench, he gets paid so much.

3.

Lebron will score 40 points in his first game, lots of cutting to the basket, posting up, hitting his free throws ( 18-20 I must say ) He will be 3-4 from three land, a couple fast break dunks and and1ns. With the clock running down in the 3rd Q Lebron will dance around the key, take a step back and pop a fadeaway over KG, which will be following be Paul Pierce doing his best to not piss him self, he wishes he could do that.

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This I agree with, but you forgot one thing. He will posterize KG with another Boston teabag :headbang:

4.

Okay, 4, we're finally here. After all this hooplah surrounding Mo, JJ and Lebron ( Lets say about 10 games ) we're all going to look at the box score, and see that Wally played 34 minutes, hit 4-5 from 3 land had 3 assists 4 rebounds with only 2 TOs. He was also 5-5 from the free throw line! That's 17 points for Wally! Woah! Wally is shooting 48% from three land! Woah! Wally's averages are 14 ppg, 5 rebounds and 93% from the line! WOAH! Hmm... maybe we don't need to trade for a stud SG, maybe Wally, will step up. Think about that for a second.

I'm not saying anything, but I'm just saying.

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That's if we don't trade him

LeBron4Pres said:

Turk3d said that Snow already has an aggreement to be a coach for us. I dont know where he got this though.
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtop...sd=a&start=225.

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Who's Turk3d? Heath is that you on real gm?

What the bloody hell... :chuckles:

Gone for a few days, and I see 26 pages of Snow for Jackson on the table, Ftw!