Chief Wahoo Discussion

Looks like @Triple-S has @gourimoko on ignore... or is just dodging the question.

I have little respect for people who argue ad hominem rather than discussing the points brought up by those individuals.

Triple-S said:

Both sides hold no relevance to me, yes

AIM is garbage. The people engaging with them are idiots.

My point is why listen to marxists of any ilk? I would prefer not to listen to far right facists or far left marxists on this issue.

I am not against a name or logo change. Again i cheer for the city, not the team name. I just don't want it done because 3 marxists who happen to share native american heritage with me are screeching extra loud about it

If someone representing say "cherokee nation of oklahona" were the ones discussing the issue? I will listen and side with them. But never AIM/Marxists. I don't generally support those with sympathies to the black panthers, do you?

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What's kinda scary is that at a time when your brethren in the Native community are so upset at being objectified and silenced, you are here vilifying their stance like their voice means squat. That's pretty much been the norm for their community since folks came from Europe.

I've stated a few times in here how I'm acutely aware of the "why" in the matter regarding Chief Wahoo and the name Indians compared to other non-Native Tribe fans. I have serious doubts about your connection to the native community if you can't grasp the psychological impact of being boiled-down into a caricature that random non-Native people mimic by acting "Indian", wearing head dresses, and making "war cry" sounds. Literally, all of these factions of Native tribes have been collectively identified as northwest white plains natives and their integration into pop-culture following Littlebig Horn has been collectively reinforcing the notion that they are just a bunch of novelty characters. This objectification does lead to psychological issues for Natives. But as you say, "it's just a few marxists!"

Triple-S said:

And to add? (Again) I would much prefer these efforts be made towards having first nations history in k-12.

That would go a long way to actually educate people on it and reduce harmful stereotypes like wahoo in the long run.

This stuff does nothing but just breed resentment against people imo.

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You don't understand it, I suppose. Wahoo is (unfortunately) racist. The object shouldn't be trying to educate kids into thinking that it's not. The object is (and should be) Native American adults standing-up and ridding pop-culture of this racist shit in time so their kids and grandkids don't have to grow-up seeing how European settlers view their ancestors being accepted as "normal".

Growing up to look at a package with a northwest Native American chief that says in all caps "RED MAN" is not something I want to teach kids is "not meant to be stereotypical" when it's the very definition of how it played-out in American history.

Soda said:

What's kinda scary is that at a time when your brethren in the Native community are so upset at being objectified and silenced, you are here vilifying their stance like their voice means squat. That's pretty much been the norm for their community since folks came from Europe.

I've stated a few times in here how I'm acutely aware of the "why" in the matter regarding Chief Wahoo and the name Indians compared to other non-Native Tribe fans. I have serious doubts about your connection to the native community if you can't grasp the psychological impact of being boiled-down into a caricature that random non-Native people mimic by acting "Indian", wearing head dresses, and making "war cry" sounds. Literally, all of these factions of Native tribes have been collectively identified as northwest white plains natives and their integration into pop-culture following Littlebig Horn has been collectively reinforcing the notion that they are just a bunch of novelty characters. This objectification does lead to psychological issues for Natives. But as you say, "it's just a few marxists!"

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This is literally an appeal to tribalism in every way possible

He can disagree with his "brethren". Implying he needs to align with people of his ethnicity is tenuous and dangerous. He can see things differently than them and frankly I don't think "all white, black , yellow" people should think and feel and act the same " is particularly beneficial

David. said:

This is literally an appeal to tribalism in every way possible

He can disagree with his "brethren". Implying he needs to align with people of his ethnicity is tenuous and dangerous

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I guess if you mean to say that I imply it should be unconditional.

If you peel back your cynical lens, you'll see that it is alarming that he's telling his own folks "shut-up, you're a minority". I can find Native scholars who'd agree.

Anyways, are you ready to say that tribalism isn't called-for here? I can understand if it's more of an ethical issue, but curbing Native American racism? Die on that hill if you want.

Out of the Rafters at the Q said:

Looks like @Triple-S has @gourimoko on ignore... or is just dodging the question.

I have little respect for people who argue ad hominem rather than discussing the points brought up by those individuals.

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I'm kinda busy at work .

Otherwise I'd try my best to argue back overall.

Good points were made even if i disagree.

I had a conversation with my students about the organizations decision to end the mascot Chief Wahoo today. Seventh graders are studying world history and were overall apathetic to the subject. Some took the step to ask "what if there were stereotypes of Asians or another group, would you feel the same way?" The eighth grade takes U.S. history and they were more emphatic against the Chief because they just studied the Trail of Tears and other actions taken against the Native American people.

Of course one thing they all had in common is having no connection to the franchise. I really do see this as the final step: Fans who see the good the franchise has done for the spirits of the city accepting a different experience than their own. The Chief is really a unique centerpiece for the broader topic of empathy: the level to which you can understand someone else's experiences are as valuable as your own.

So I had a quick contest for a new logo. Lots of kids making bows and arrows, one baseball that says "Cleveland" across the ball, one teepee, one feather over an "I" and a "C". I'm interested to see if the team can create a new logo that is marketable... That is the only reason Wahoo made it this long... No suitable replacement caught on.

Soda said:

I guess if you mean to say that I imply it should be unconditional.

If you peel back your cynical lens, you'll see that it is alarming that he's telling his own folks "shut-up, you're a minority". I can find Native scholars who'd agree.

Anyways, are you ready to say that tribalism isn't called-for here? I can understand if it's more of an ethical issue, but curbing Native American racism? Die on that hill if you want.

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"his own folks" is an appeal to racism. You're actively encouraging that here.

No, appeal to tribalism is stupid. I have no tie to the white race , I don't care if they exist in 1000 years.it would be illogical to think otherwise

He has just told you he doesn't see it as racist, so that's not a hill HE is dying on and I've said I thought it was racist no less than ten times in this thread so I appreciate it if we didn't imply either of us were preparing to die on that hill.

And frankly you're framing this in an awful way. He has given arguments fill of nuance and you've reduced it down to "if you don't agree you racist". Just going to end this discussion.

David. said:

Just going to end this discussion.

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You'll notice if you do that I'm very confident in what I know about this. It's not because I've read a lot on the internet, either.

Soda said:

You'll notice if you do that I'm very confident in what I know about this. It's not because I've read a lot on the internet, either.

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I'm not sure what you mean here but it doesn't specifically address the points in my post.

I'm fine disagreeing with you here and parting ways as friends.

Soda said:

I guess if you mean to say that I imply it should be unconditional.

If you peel back your cynical lens, you'll see that it is alarming that he's telling his own folks "shut-up, you're a minority". I can find Native scholars who'd agree.

Anyways, are you ready to say that tribalism isn't called-for here? I can understand if it's more of an ethical issue, but curbing Native American racism? Die on that hill if you want.

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I'm not telling them to "shut up". They're in america, they have every right in the world to speak up on their beliefs. Good on them for excercising their 1st amendment rights.

I am saying I do not feel comfortable having people that go against my values politically speaking on my and other's behalf.

David. said:

"his own folks" is an appeal to racism. You're actively encouraging that here.

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I AM actively appealing to a Native American about understanding his community's plight. You can call it what you want. There are kids and others who are Native that see this stuff as racist. If you're Native American, I don't think it's appropriate to tell them "I'm Native and your feelings aren't something I care about". Not for that community.

Triple-S said:

I am saying I do not feel comfortable having people that go against my values politically speaking on my and other's behalf.

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I'm sure they feel the same way about how you're talking here... What's the problem have to do with Wahoo going? It's racist; Native Americans think so, even if it's not the right amount for you to consider as "valid".

I'm also here to tell you that there are numerous Native folks who just do not want to pick this fight with their neighbors/family. They just live with it, even if they have a problem with Wahoo. They don't want to engage people who will just tell them it's not a major concern. If you're part Native, I'm sure you have family that isn't part native somewhere down the line. How often does Wahoo come up with them?

Randolphkeys said:

I'm interested to see if the team can create a new logo that is marketable... That is the only reason Wahoo made it this long... No suitable replacement caught on.

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I like the idea of a 'new logo ideas' thread

GV created a new logo for their Indians apparel this year...I like it:



(I'd made the C straight though instead of crooked)

David. said:

"his own folks" is an appeal to racism. You're actively encouraging that here.

No, appeal to tribalism is stupid. I have no tie to the white race , I don't care if they exist in 1000 years.it would be illogical to think otherwise

He has just told you he doesn't see it as racist, so that's not a hill HE is dying on and I've said I thought it was racist no less than ten times in this thread so I appreciate it if we didn't imply either of us were preparing to die on that hill.

And frankly you're framing this in an awful way. He has given arguments fill of nuance and you've reduced it down to "if you don't agree you racist". Just going to end this discussion.

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I think what @Soda is saying is that for a Native American to witness Native Americans and their culture attacked and do nothing, or worse yet, to make tacit arguments in favor of the attack so as not to ruffle feathers or to potentially encourage "resentment;" does more harm than good. In fact, this sort of self-harm among minorities for social advantage is a unique issue onto itself.

I understand what you're trying to say, but like many things, I don't think you can analogously translate this concept to the larger, majority/normative case. That is to say, your argument here about White people and defending the White race is not a direct comparison, because "White People" are not a historically oppressed group in this country. However, if say, in 500 years, they somehow were, then the argument would make sense -- and yes, you probably should think about defending one's interests along the lines of discrimination. (Please don't read this as if I'm saying it's open season on White folks; I'm simply saying not everything about minority issues translates to the majority case).

It's not really an issue of deliberate tribalism insomuch as it's a defense against a clear attack along ethnic and racial lines with a 400 year history of violence and oppression against this specific group.