I disagree with you on the McGriff thing Gunther..
McGriff led the league in HR twice
.284 career average
.886 OPS
493 Hrs
He played 19 seasons at a high level. In fact his 162 game averages are
.284, 32hr, 102rbi
that's pretty impressive for 19 seasons
Lee Smith should get in. His stats are outstanding but really he and Eckersly were the 1st 2 dominant closers. Now in MLB, having that elite closer is requist to being a championship contender.
Morris, you can make a case and you've done a fine job at it. I just don't think he's got enough to get in.
I can tell you that I liked McGriff as a player, but after reviewing the situation more thoroughly, I have to stick by my original assertion that he does not belong in the HOF. The reasons why are varied and require a very long post, so let me apologize for that right up front. I took some time to compile some data, and that is listed below.
To begin with, I think that it is important to note (as Macbdog has also noted above regarding Roberto Alomar), that HOF candidates are judged by position. A starting pitcher is judged in accordance to their accomplishments next to all other starting pitchers, just as a first baseman is judged in accordance to their accomplishments next to all other first basemen (and probably in the coming years along with DH’s as well).
Next, let’s look at the standard a first baseman candidate for the HOF should expect to be measured by. Below is a list of all first basemen that have been inducted into the HOF (NOTE: There are also three Negro League first basemen that are in the HOF, but I excluded them from this discussion because of the lack of stat data for comparison). It is interesting to note, that of 202 total non-Negro League players inducted in to the HOF through the 2009 class, only 18 are 1B, or about 8.9%.
NAME|AVG|OBP|SLG|HITS|HR|RBI|RUNS|SB
Cap Anson |.329|.395 |.446 |2,995|97|1,879|1,719|247
Jake Beckley |.308|.361|.435 |2,930|86|1,575|1,600|315
Jim Bottomley|.310 |.369|.500|2,313|219|1,422|1,177|58
Dan Brouthers|.342 |.423|.519 |2,296| 106|1,296|1,523|256
Orlando Cepeda|.297 |.353 |.499 |2,351|379|1,365|1,131|142
Frank Chance|.296|.394|.394|1,273|20|596|797|401
Roger Connor|.317 |.397|.486|2,467|138|1,322|1,620|244
Jimmie Foxx|.325|.428|.609|2,646|534|1,922|1,751|87
Lou Gehrig|.340 |.447|.632|2,721|493|1,995|1,888|102
Hank Greenberg|.313|.412|.605|1,628|331|1,276|1,051|58
George Kelly|.297|.342|.452|1,778|148|1,020|819|65
Harmon Killebrew|.256|.379|.509|2,086|573|1,584|1,283|19
Willie McCovey|.270 |.377|.515|2,211|521|1,555|1,229|26
Johnny Mize|.312|.397|.562|2,011|359|1,337|1,118|28
Eddie Murray|.287|.359|.476|3,255|504|1,917|1,627| 110
Tony Perez|.279|.344|.463|2,732|379|1,652|1,272|49
George Sisler|.340 |.379|.468|2,812|102|1,175|1,284|375
Bill Terry|.341|.393 |.506|2,193|154|1,078|1,120|56
One quick note, it is a good idea to separate these players into pre-WWII and post-WWII categories for two reasons:
- The rules for induction to the Hall changed after WWII
- The game changed from small ball to long ball with the coming of Babe Ruth and the live ball era in 1920, and the home run-era player was coming eligible about the time of the ending of WWII
I did not separate the list into pre-WWII and post-WWII for you, but it is not difficult to pick out the pre-WWII era players from the list.
Regardless of this, even if you consider the total list of 18 inductees, you will see that most of them have achieved one or more of the following traditional metrics needed for the hall: a .300 lifetime BA, more than 500 HR or more than 3,000 hits. The only modern-era players that I see who did not achieve one or more of these measures were Orlando Cepeda and Tony Perez. Orlando Cepeda was Rookie of the Year, a 6 time All Star, led the league in RBI twice and home runs once and was also NL MVP in 1967. Tony Perez was a 7 time All Star who played 21 seasons in the majors, several at 3B. He was part of two World Series championships in Cincinnati with the Big Red Machine. IMO, he was a much more versatile player than Fred McGriff.
What this shows on first observation is that Fred McGriff has an uphill battle in this discussion. McGriff was a very steady player, very reliable. He played at a high level. He achieved multiple All Star selections and was part of one World Series team. But that is about it. He never hit career .300, he never hit 500 home runs, and he never got 3,000 hits. I am aware that he was close to 500 home runs, but talk to Bert Blyleven and his 287 wins about being close to a major milestone. He also never won a Gold Glove award, so it is difficult to argue the merits of a high-level of defense to put him over the top.
Now, let’s look at a list of great first basemen that never made it to the HOF. Do any of these names impress?
Steve Garvey, Dick Allen, Keith Hernandez, Gil Hodges, Don Mattingly, Will Clark, Mark Grace, Boog Powell, John Olerud, Vic Power, Bill White, George Scott, Wes Parker and Joe Pepitone.
In this list are MVP’s, multiple-selection All Stars, Rookies of the Year, multiple-selection Gold Glove winners, etc, etc, etc. They are all really great ballplayers in their own right, but for one reason or another, they are not HOF’ers. I see McGriff as belonging among these players. This is a respected group of ballplayers to belong to, but not HOF-caliber. As Macbdog mentioned above (and placing purely political selections aside), only the true cream of the crop tend to get inducted to the Hall.
Next let’s take a look at some of the first basemen that will be available for induction in the near future, say within seven or eight years, that I feel have a legitimate shot at being inducted: Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Todd Helton and Jeff Bagwell. Consider, too, that in the distant future, the standard of excellence for first basemen will likely be raised to a very high level when Albert Pujols is available for induction, a fact that will not be lost on the induction committee. If all goes well for the rest of his career, he will go down as a Lou Gehrig-type inductee. The bar will have been raised. My point is that all of these candidates will have achieved one or more of the following traditional metrics needed for the hall: a .300 lifetime BA, more than 500 HR or more than 3,000 hits. In addition, they will have won batting titles, MVP awards, held home run titles, won multiple gold gloves, etc, etc. These candidates outshine Fred McGriff.
In addition, let’s consider some candidates that will become available soon who have spent most of their careers at designated hitter, who would have to be lumped in to the first baseman category: Edgar Martinez, Harold Baines and Gary Sheffield are the most Hall-worthy, IMO, and any of these candidates will either give Fred McGriff a run for his money, or they will just be another argument to keep him in the list of high-level, non-Hall players that I placed him in above.
I should also note that there is a short but growing list of players that I feel will or should be banned from the Hall due to PED use, and among them are several excellent first basemen/designated hitters: Jason Giambi, Raphael Palmeiro and David Ortiz. If they are not banned, they will make induction for McGriff-caliber players even that much more difficult.
Finally, let’s talk about the concept and honor of being a first ballot-HOF’er, which is what you are suggesting McGriff should be. Only three of the current eighteen inducted first basement were first ballot HOF’ers: Lou Gehrig, Willie McCovey and Eddie Murray. Honestly, does Fred McGriff belong on this list? Should he even be considered in this category in all fairness? No, he shouldn’t.
I should note in closing that in all of this research I have talked myself out of my original assertion that Don Mattingly should be on the first-ballot unless he is put over the top by his defensive prowess.
I hope this gives you a better idea of where I was coming from.
