Browns stadium thread: To dome or not to dome

[macbdog]

I think the amount of air traffic through the airport went down dramatically because United pulled Cleveland as one of their hubs. If they aren't a domestic hub then there is little incentive for international flights, there just wouldn't be enough demand from the Cleveland market for those international flights.

Exactly what I said. That hub was originally Continental; United has a hub somewhere close, so the merger was essentially a guarantee that the hub was gonna close, which it did.

 

[inliner311]

Exactly what I said. That hub was originally Continental; United has a hub somewhere close, so the merger was essentially a guarantee that the hub was gonna close, which it did.

I don't think the stadium would create enough international draw to provide more international flights service. You need an airline to have Cleveland as a domestic hub, that the part I was bring up. If a city isn't a hub, they don't really get many international flights. The demand solely on a city to fill international flights just isn't there even in the best of circumstances. You need regularly scheduled flights so people don't get stuck and you have to reroute loads of people to another city to get to their destination.

If they were going to extend the runway that means they were doing it to allow bigger planes which probably meant more long range flights. It was probably a plan for real large extended range planes. Those kind of planes actually are fewer now than they were 10+ years ago when United took over Continental. A lot actually went out of service even though they weren't that old. This kind of goes back to the regularly scheduled flights vs a big capacity plane but fewer scheduled flights. The airlines opted for more regularly scheduled flights because they couldn't fill the huge planes on a regular basis.

 

[jmilo]

I don't think the stadium would create enough international draw provide more international flights service. You need an airline to have Cleveland as a domestic hub, that the part I was bring up. If a city isn't a hub, they don't really get many international flights. The demand solely on a city to fill international flights just isn't there even in the best of circumstances. You need regularly scheduled flights so people don't get stuck and you have to reroute loads of people to another city to get to their destination.

If they were going to extend the runway that means they were doing it to allow bigger planes which probably meant more long range flights. It was probably a plan for real large extended range planes. Those kind of planes actually are fewer now than they were 10+ years ago when United took over Continental. A lot actually went out of service even though they weren't that old. This kind of goes back to the regularly scheduled flights vs a big capacity plane but fewer scheduled flights. The airlines opted for more regularly scheduled flights because they couldn't fill the huge planes on a regular basis.

You aren't bringing a significant number of international flights from major carriers back to Cleveland.

If you want international flights, you will have to court the smaller carriers like the ones from Iceland or something.

I'm not sure it's a problem that needs solving. If you're traveling East from Cleveland (or West into Cleveland) you just go through a major Eastern hub like Newark. If you're on the opposite side, you're going to have to go through a Denver/Houston/Chicago/LAX.

Those aren't brutally inconvenient.

If the Brook Park thing actually happens, you guys need to get efficient, fast, clean trains that go from Brook Park into your city.

 

[macbdog]

If the Brook Park thing actually happens, you guys need to get efficient, fast, clean trains that go from Brook Park into your city.

RTA got a federal grant to get new trains, it's gonna be a couple years plan to get them all. I know it wasn't enough for all the trains they needed, the cost was in the 300m range. Then again, I don't see the trains being any faster since it's a quick ride when not leak time anyway and it doesn't matter how fast the train is bc it's the crowds that slow it down.

I'm not sure the trains will be that well used for this stadium site, though. Currently, folks park at the Brook Park station to ride into downtown for the game. Now, they will just park at the stadium. Also, I don't see East siders doing a 1 hour+ train ride from Shaker, CLE Hts, etc- which includes switching trains at Tower City. Those folks will just brave the drive imo. To me, the train line to the stadium will only relieve congestion if the line is extended to the Western suburbs, whether south, west, or both. And RTA simply can't afford that.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I voted in favor of a bullet train project back in 2008. Check out how awesome everything is going a decade and a half later:

https://www.kcra.com/article/california-bullet-train-project-funding-san-francisco-los-angeles/60181448

Work on a stadium that doesn't suck first. Trust me on that.

 

[jmilo]

RTA got a federal grant to get new trains, it's gonna be a couple years plan to get them all. I know it wasn't enough for all the trains they needed, the cost was in the 300m range. Then again, I don't see the trains being any faster since it's a quick ride when not leak time anyway and it doesn't matter how fast the train is bc it's the crowds that slow it down.

I'm not sure the trains will be that well used for this stadium site, though. Currently, folks park at the Brook Park station to ride into downtown for the game. Now, they will just park at the stadium. Also, I don't see East siders doing a 1 hour+ train ride from Shaker, CLE Hts, etc- which includes switching trains at Tower City. Those folks will just brave the drive imo. To me, the train line to the stadium will only relieve congestion if the line is extended to the Western suburbs, whether south, west, or both. And RTA simply can't afford that.

I hope they're nicer than what RTA was when I was growing up.

If you want to court the crowd that would fly in for an NFL game, you need to feel equal to or better than a nice, clean airport shuttle. Ideally it would go non-stop from the stadium to somewhere downtown with hotel/restaurant access.

 

[jmilo]

I voted in favor of a bullet train project back in 2008. Check out how awesome everything is going a decade and a half later:

https://www.kcra.com/article/california-bullet-train-project-funding-san-francisco-los-angeles/60181448

Work on a stadium that doesn't suck first. Trust me on that.

The disaster of public planning that went into the California high speed rail initiative will be studied for a long time.

I just hope people don't use that example to discourage other high speed rail.

 

[southernflyer]

Exactly what I said. That hub was originally Continental; United has a hub somewhere close, so the merger was essentially a guarantee that the hub was gonna close, which it did.

Continental's hubs were Newark, Houston, Cleveland and technically Guam for Air Micronesia.

United's Hubs were Washington Dulles, Chicago, Denver, LA and San Fran.

Cleveland was too close geographically to Chicago (and far less revenue potential) to continue as a hub. Especially after BP moved to Chicago and other corporate clients were siphoned by Delta and American with status bonuses. Continental at Cleveland tried many mini-expansions, usually using regional jets. One of their mid-west expansions one summer was pulled weeks before starting up. The now closed D concourse was all prop/regional jets and was built to only have a ten year life expectancy until the airport's 2002 master plan, including runway expansion for larger aircraft/ more trans-Atlantic routes from Continental, was completed.

There was only Cleveland-London Gatwick (moved to Heathrow after the merger in '09, discontinued with the Heathrow landing slots too valuable to keep to the Cleveland route) operating with Paris (Air France hub) and Amsterdam (KLM hub) flights were considered until post-merger Continental left Sky Team and joined United in the Star Alliance. That switched to potential Frankfurt (Lufthansa hub) route, but LH didn't have larger aircraft to spare and Continental's pre-merger 757's used trans-Atlantic to the UK, Spain and Portugal couldn't fly the distance without weight restrictions. With United's 787s in house, they could handle any of those routes. I wouldn't expect any new service out of United other than regaining some routes in the northeast or summer season to the west coast that were around until Cleveland was de-hubbed.

The Aer Lingus flight to Dublin is heavily subsidized for three years and seasonably does alright financially. It will most likely end after the subsidies run out, or cut to three times a week if it is kept operating.

 

[bigfoot5415]

Continental's hubs were Newark, Houston, Cleveland and technically Guam for Air Micronesia.

United's Hubs were Washington Dulles, Chicago, Denver, LA and San Fran.

Cleveland was too close geographically to Chicago (and far less revenue potential) to continue as a hub. Especially after BP moved to Chicago and other corporate clients were siphoned by Delta and American with status bonuses. Continental at Cleveland tried many mini-expansions, usually using regional jets. One of their mid-west expansions one summer was pulled weeks before starting up. The now closed D concourse was all prop/regional jets and was built to only have a ten year life expectancy until the airport's 2002 master plan, including runway expansion for larger aircraft/ more trans-Atlantic routes from Continental, was completed.

There was only Cleveland-London Gatwick (moved to Heathrow after the merger in '09, discontinued with the Heathrow landing slots too valuable to keep to the Cleveland route) operating with Paris (Air France hub) and Amsterdam (KLM hub) flights were considered until post-merger Continental left Sky Team and joined United in the Star Alliance. That switched to potential Frankfurt (Lufthansa hub) route, but LH didn't have larger aircraft to spare and Continental's pre-merger 757's used trans-Atlantic to the UK, Spain and Portugal couldn't fly the distance without weight restrictions. With United's 787s in house, they could handle any of those routes. I wouldn't expect any new service out of United other than regaining some routes in the northeast or summer season to the west coast that were around until Cleveland was de-hubbed.

The Aer Lingus flight to Dublin is heavily subsidized for three years and seasonably does alright financially. It will most likely end after the subsidies run out, or cut to three times a week if it is kept operating.

You would think that with O'Haire constantly having issues, delays and being overloaded that they might want to offload some of that burden.