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Thread: 2012 Draft

  1. #5101
    Resident Microbiologist Dr. Gymbo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Regarding Austin Rivers declaring for the draft, this is Jigo's reaction somewhere in FL:



    In all honesty, I don't know if Rivers would be a good fit next to Kyrie Irving. After seeing Kyrie play both positions this season with Ramon it makes me at least curious to the possibility, especially if the Cavs fall to 9-10. Even if the Cavs are at 8, it's likely that all of the other wing/shooting guard players are gone (MKG, Barnes, Beal). I think Rivers and Lamb are the next tier down from those three guys.

    Who would you take between Lamb or Rivers? I think I'd have to go Lamb.

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  3. #5102
    GET POOPED ON KID Dodger Champion Feed The King Champion Grab the Green Champion Pretty Kitty Champion Bubble Jumper Champion Master Mahjongg Champion HACKER Champion Blockdown Champion Find the keys Champion Pretty Puppies Puzzles Champion Mega Bounce Champion 2mazed Champion Quadratical Champion NtG's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    We already know that having two ball dominant guards on your team will not work (GOLDEN STATE). I absolutely do not want Rivers.
    I eat speghetti

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  5. #5103
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    People seriously want Rivers over Beal? People seriously want Rivers playing with Kyrie?


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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by ajz20 View Post
    Half the board was a hyperbole.
    So you exaggerated your insult? And that makes it more appropriate, how?

    Quote Originally Posted by ajz20 View Post
    Second, yes, our future will be decided based on our ability to add young core players. This draft will be a chance to add a major young stud to build with. You are not making the playoffs, so why would you want to lessen your chances of getting an Anhtony Davis, MKG, Harrison Barnes or Brad Beal?
    I've explained to you many times why the Cavaliers would willingly lessen their chances.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajz20 View Post
    We have had this discussion a million times, so I am not sure why are compelled to continue to argue. I am not going to budge about long term success versus short term success that is some nights fools gold because your second leading scorer is not apart of the franchise long term.
    Look at the chart and see the percentages of moving in the top 3 based on where you finish in the standings. It has been posted many times.
    Nobody is asking you to budge, and nobody needs a "chart" to understand odds & percentages, and nobody is even asking you to understand why a GM and an owner would consider other factors besides this. The question is why do you keep going out of your way to insult people you think disagree with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ajz20 View Post
    You chase the 8th seed in the playoffs like it is aa world championship.
    Me? I'm not chasing anything. Our players are playing their collective asses off even though in your mind it means nothing. Go figure. I support their efforts, rather than your opinion that they should lay down.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajz20 View Post
    Your supporters have even advocated adding a veteran to help make a run. It shows how out of touch you are.
    I wasn't aware I had "supporters". Each person has their own opinion on the topic and if you want to argue one of their points, take it up with them.

    I've never argued we should add a veteran to make a run, I've argued we should be willing to take on an overpaid veteran that'd likely improve our record if we got back a significant asset in addition such as a lottery pick or a promising young player.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajz20 View Post
    Anyways, there was a tweet from probasketballDraft saying Rivers has a shot to go top 10. That is great news for us!!!!!!!!!
    Except for those of us dreaming of him slipping all the way to the Laker's pick ...

  7. #5105
    #howu Noonan's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by NtG View Post
    We already know that having two ball dominant guards on your team will not work (GOLDEN STATE). I absolutely do not want Rivers.
    Agreed. Drafting Rivers would be just about the worst pick the Cavs could make. Has there been a quality playoff team in the last 20 years that had two ball-dominating guards? All it gets you is a few Sports Center highlights and trade rumors once management realizes the two guys don't fit.

  8. #5106
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by NtG View Post
    We already know that having two ball dominant guards on your team will not work (GOLDEN STATE). I absolutely do not want Rivers.
    What Golden State was able to do with a different system and entirely different philosophy, and with different ball dominant guards, neither of which having the overall potential of Kyrie, doesn't result in us already knowing anything about how it would work, if at all, here.

    What we do know is that Byron likes to use 2 PG lineups with some regularity, as he's done both here and with the Hornets. We also know that Kyrie can play off the ball pretty well. Finally, we should know that the Princeton offense, at least in theory, requires both guards to be solid ballhandlers, shooters, and passers.

    What we don't know is whether Rivers has the mentality/ability to be effective in the NBA as an off-guard, even if he does get to play with the ball in his hands a fair amount, as well. We also don't know whether it's possible to break whatever curse has been cast upon him that has made him believe that his left arm has been amputated. I don't know if he has the strength and size to guard other SGs (I don't think so). Though you would think he'd be highly coachable, I don't know if his personality/attitude will allow for someone like Byron to get into his head and get him to cut back on those frequent plays where his overconfidence in his own handle causes him to try to do too much driving into traffic, resulting in a turnover.

    I think, overall, I'm with you on not wanting Rivers, but mostly because I'd rather us be in a position to draft Beal or Lamb (and tournament be damned, I don't believe Beal has put as much distance between himself and Lamb as many here proclaim). Beal is an awesomely safe prospect, with good strength, adequate size, excellent mechanics in all facets, and off-the-charts intangibles, but his lack of elite ballhandling ability and explosiveness limit his potential a bit in my mind. Compare that to Lamb, who has excellent height for the position, tremendous length, better handles, more advanced offensive game generally, and more explosiveness, but poses very real strength concerns and has questionable intangibles. Classic higher floor/higher ceiling dichotomy between the two in my mind.

    But if those two, along with the two SFs, TRob, and obviously Davis and Drummond are off the board, however, Rivers has to at least be in the conversation, regardless of what Golden Shithole did with their two guards.

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  10. #5107
    Hall of Famer Rich's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Noonan View Post
    Agreed. Drafting Rivers would be just about the worst pick the Cavs could make. Has there been a quality playoff team in the last 20 years that had two ball-dominating guards? All it gets you is a few Sports Center highlights and trade rumors once management realizes the two guys don't fit.
    The Warriors with Baron Davis and Monta Ellis.

    And the whole Warriors thing was so much more than Curry and Ellis not fitting, In my opinion, that was the least of the problems. The real problem was no size in the paint to speak of. They couldn't protect the rim to save their lives and it had nothing to do with Curry or Ellis.

    And anyway, if this the road we feel like going down is "well, this hasn't worked for another team so we shouldn't do it" then you guys might to really think about that. Because can anyone name me a team in the last twenty years that actually won a championship in which its Point Guard was the best player on the team? You MIGHT be able to say the Pistons in '04. Rare is it when a PG led team actually wins titles, but I don't think that means we shouldn't try to be an exception with Kyrie.

    Likewise, just because it didn't work out in Golden State with Curry and Ellis I don't think it means it should be avoided at all costs here. Especially considering my above statements about it being much more than just those two not fitting AND the fact that Kyrie Irving is already better than either of those two players have ever been.
    Quote Originally Posted by David.
    Idiot

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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Good news with Rivers leaving school. I think we'll see just about all of the top prospects leave for the NBA. Some people have been pessimistic about guys leaving because of Barnes, Jones III, etc. staying last year. Keep in mind, last year there was no guarantee that the NBA was even going to have a season. That was the exception and not the rule.

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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Even though we don't want Rivers, the more stacked this draft is the better. More chance of someone we do want falling to us.

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  14. #5110
    GET POOPED ON KID Dodger Champion Feed The King Champion Grab the Green Champion Pretty Kitty Champion Bubble Jumper Champion Master Mahjongg Champion HACKER Champion Blockdown Champion Find the keys Champion Pretty Puppies Puzzles Champion Mega Bounce Champion 2mazed Champion Quadratical Champion NtG's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_slam911 View Post
    Even though we don't want Rivers, the more stacked this draft is the better. More chance of someone we do want falling to us.
    While this is true, I highly doubt that Rivers has any effect on our first pick, but he could cause someone to slide to us at the Lakers pick...
    I eat speghetti

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  16. #5111
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    I don't think the Golden State analogy is that far off: Curry the last 2 years has eerily similar numbers to Kyrie and when he plays and particularly when he play w/o Ellis, the Warriors play well. The problem of course is that Curry's ankle injuries have limited him.

    IMO go with Beal and Lamb, two guys who have shown they can be very effective w/o having to dominate the ball
    There is a tension, peculiar to basketball, between the interests of the team and the interests of the individual. The game continually tempts the people who play it to do things that are not in the interest of the group.
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    #howu Noonan's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    The Warriors with Baron Davis and Monta Ellis.
    The same Warriors that went 42-40, got in as the 8th seed and were bounced in the 2nd round? And who have only made the playoffs once in the last 15 years? I guess we have a different defition of the word quality. If that's the best example you have, then I'd say the point stands.
    Last edited by Noonan; 03-23-2012 at 01:22 PM.

  18. #5113
    Draft Guru ajz20's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    There really is not point going back and forth. As I said we should agree to disagree and talk about the actual players in the draft. At the end of the way I assume we both want the same thing. A true title contender.
    Quote Originally Posted by JonFromVA View Post
    So you exaggerated your insult? And that makes it more appropriate, how?



    I've explained to you many times why the Cavaliers would willingly lessen their chances.



    Nobody is asking you to budge, and nobody needs a "chart" to understand odds & percentages, and nobody is even asking you to understand why a GM and an owner would consider other factors besides this. The question is why do you keep going out of your way to insult people you think disagree with you?



    Me? I'm not chasing anything. Our players are playing their collective asses off even though in your mind it means nothing. Go figure. I support their efforts, rather than your opinion that they should lay down.



    I wasn't aware I had "supporters". Each person has their own opinion on the topic and if you want to argue one of their points, take it up with them.

    I've never argued we should add a veteran to make a run, I've argued we should be willing to take on an overpaid veteran that'd likely improve our record if we got back a significant asset in addition such as a lottery pick or a promising young player.



    Except for those of us dreaming of him slipping all the way to the Laker's pick ...

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  20. #5114
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Noonan View Post
    The same Warriors that went 42-40, got in as the 8th seed and were bounced in the 2nd round? And who have only made the playoffs once in the last 15 years? I guess we have a different defition of the word quality. If that's the best example you have, then I'd say the point stands.
    So quality means what exactly? Just some fluid term that can fit whatever you want it to mean? I figured beating the 67 win Mavericks and making it to the 2nd round was quality.

    Here's another team, what about the Celtics team that made it to the Conference Finals led by two guys who seemingly shouldn't fit together at all: Pierce and Walker. I mean there are plenty of examples out there of teams who have two guys who are star players and both need the ball in their hands to play well. One in Miami right now.

    And again, like the rest of my post pointed out, just because something is hard to do or hasn't been isn't the best reason to avoid it. Again, show me a team that has won a title in the last 20 years in which its PG was the best player. Does that mean we should just give up on the Kyrie thing before we even give it a chance to win a title?
    Quote Originally Posted by David.
    Idiot

  21. #5115
    #howu Noonan's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Here's another team, what about the Celtics team that made it to the Conference Finals led by two guys who seemingly shouldn't fit together at all: Pierce and Walker. I mean there are plenty of examples out there of teams who have two guys who are star players and both need the ball in their hands to play well. One in Miami right now.
    Neither Walker or LeBron are guards. And undersized guards, at that.

    To answer your other question: The Pistons in 2004 and Spurs in 2007 won the title with the PG earning Finals MVP and being the most important player on the floor.

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