Kyrie Irving

[SteelSmack]

Top-ten point guard? Or top-ten player at the point guard position? Kyrie is the latter, not the former, imo.

[Kyrie_K2]

I don't really think it is laughable. It is arguable in my book.

I just dont see how you can make the argument that Rubio is a better overall player than Kyrie. Rubio is a better passer and averages about four more assists, but he does get more minutes than Kyrie. Rubio shooting 38% from the field this year and Kyrie is shooting 51%, and the majority of Rubio's buckets are open layups. He airballed two straight jumpers in the first three minutes of Minnesotas game the other day. And Kyrie is averaging 7 more points in 6 less minutes per game. Rubio is a great player and has loads of potential, but if you are saying he is better than Kyrie you might be clinically insane.

[brooksfosho]

Rubio isn't better than Kyrie in the sheer sense of the word (though on some teams he would be), but 10+ other guys who have been listed are. This is such a pointless argument. As good as he's been, the kid has played ~31 games since high school; he's pretty awful on the defensive end and still makes a fair share of silly mistakes throughout games. Give it another year of good play before we start calling him a top-5/10 guy. He certainly has the skillset of a top 5 PG, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he ended up a top-10 player in the league before too long, but no one walks into the league and earns that kind of label - great stats or not.

[Rob]

Rubio isn't better than Kyrie in the sheer sense of the word (though on some teams he would be), but 10+ other guys who have been listed are. This is such a pointless argument. As good as he's been, the kid has played ~31 games since high school; he's pretty awful on the defensive end and still makes a fair share of silly mistakes throughout games. Give it another year of good play before we start calling him a top-5/10 guy. He certainly has the skillset of a top 5 PG, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he ended up a top-10 player in the league before too long, but no one walks into the league and earns that kind of label - great stats or not.

I am SO looking forward to this stupid argument ending.

(No offense to you).

[KI4MVP]

Rubio isn't better than Kyrie in the sheer sense of the word (though on some teams he would be), but 10+ other guys who have been listed are. This is such a pointless argument. As good as he's been, the kid has played ~31 games since high school; he's pretty awful on the defensive end and still makes a fair share of silly mistakes throughout games. Give it another year of good play before we start calling him a top-5/10 guy. He certainly has the skillset of a top 5 PG, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he ended up a top-10 player in the league before too long, but no one walks into the league and earns that kind of label - great stats or not.

it's certainly happened before on more than one occasion. It doesn't happen every year, but it's easilly happened more than a dozen times in the years I've watched basketball. And their may be not just one, but two top 10 PGs that are rookies this year. I don't think anyone said that Irving is a top 10 player in the league, but rather that he's in the top 10 of the players who play his position. It's pretty easy to make a statistical argument. He's the 5th leading scorer of all PGs, he's 2nd in points per minute, he's 5th in PER, he's 8th in value added (so discount his PER for fewer minutes played), he's 7th in TS%. He doesn't rate as high as others in assists (22nd), so he has room to grow there, but most of the other guys lack his scoring and his efficiency.

[Jon]

you havent proven to me that there are 10 point guards better than kyrie in the league. i am trying to prove that kyrie is a top ten point guard, i have to provide proof. at the same time you are claiming there are ten point guards better than him, you should provide proof for that. ive provided tons of statistical evidence, youve provided APG. if one single statistic, APG, is enough for you then alright. you still havent provided me with a list of 10 you think are better than him.

I wasn't trying to prove to you there were 10 point guards better than Kyrie. I never made that claim, and yes, I do think if you're trying to have an open mind about top-PGs without being a homer you *have* to look at APG and A/TO ratio where Kyrie ranks way too low IMO and yes that trumps any advanced statistics you can pull out.

If you feel you've proved it to yourself that's fine, but that wasn't really what the tangent was about. It was about whether claiming Kyrie was top-10 was just thinking like a homer. So, you need an argument that will stand up to fan of another team. I have some experience with how fans of other teams would look at things, so I'm trying to bringing that perspective; but I could be wrong. A lot of fans do get caught up in scoring stats.

Feel free to start a thread on RealGM and try to convince the locals that Kyrie is top-whatever and see how it goes.

I searched around a bit and couldn't find any existing discussion, so it doesn't appear to be a hot topic whether Kyrie is one of the best PGs in the league already.

btw, if you like fantasy stats, Kyrie is currently the 9th ranked PG by ESPN in their player rater.

http://games.espn.go.com/fba/playerr...&seasonId=2012

[Jon]

Do you feel the Cavs would have a better record if we had any of those guys over Kyrie?

Would their teams have a better record if Kyrie was on them?

That works both ways ... but since nobody knows the answer no matter how you turn it, it's kind of moot.

Again, you can make your arguement why those players are better. But the vast majority would strongly disagree.

Vast majority on this board? Sure. Vast majority on a Nuggets board or Memphis board? heh

Regardless, it's important to note that this isn't golf and the players don't have handicaps. Kyrie doesn't get brownie points because his team stinks. He gets brownie points for helping them not stink.

The TWolves were the worst team in the league last season, not the Cavs, and their record has improved more than ours. Ricky has all the +/- stats I wish Kyrie had, and Lawson and Conley frankly aren't shabby in that department either.

Do they click better with their teammates? Nobody cares. There are no handicaps, no sympathy points.

[MYoung23]

Well, no. His turnovers indicate he's struggling in that department, and when he does get those players the ball, they may have a chance to do something with it, but it's not necessarily always an improved chance.

Baron had games of 11 & 12 assists with the same bunch last year minus Anderson. Sessions has had games of 10, 9, 9, 8 this season coming off the bench and 7 games of 10 or more last year and they both easily maintained A/TO ratios better than 2:1.

otoh, Kyrie has so far had 4 games where he's reached 7 assists, and 4 games where he's had 6 or 7 turnovers.

The fact the team's FG% is identical to last season even when you take in to account Kyrie's contribution says something is wrong and I believe we can most certainly do better.

Inexperience and lack of training camp and practice time are huge factors, and unless fatigue sets in Kyrie should only improve as the season goes along - even with this same bunch of players.

(deleted)

Wait, why am I responding? I've never respected your "basketball knowledge" and still don't.

[Jon]

Wait, why am I responding? I've never respected your "basketball knowledge" and still don't.

That's cool. I never claimed to have any "basketball knowledge". I'm a fan posting on a fan board - no more, no less.

I do however, like to state facts and make observations.

You know, like when you were claiming Javale McGee was the great sleeper in his draft and clearly should be our target, and I made the observation that it was an enormous red flag when they claim a 7 foot center candidate isn't just a bad defender, but the worst defender in the NCAA. I'm pretty sure you ignored that too, but I don't post my thoughts for you.

Speaking of that draft, like always I wanted to draft a real PG, but can anyone remember who made this proclamation?

Sebastian Telfair = Tywon Lawson

[blue_kahuna]

I have a simple solution. Say all things being equal and you had to pick one point guard in the league right now to play on your team and if you lose, you would have to debate with Jon for all of eternity. Who would you pick ahead of Kyrie? I would probably go with Rose, Chris Paul and......that's it.

[Jon]

I have a simple solution. Say all things being equal and you had to pick one point guard in the league right now to play on your team and if you lose, you would have to debate with Jon for all of eternity. Who would you pick ahead of Kyrie? I would probably go with Rose, Chris Paul and......that's it.

I hope one of you guys screws this up. I'm looking forward to eternal life!

[TyGuy]

This thread is starting to make me pine for the days when UFO and jonfromva were debating about firing Mike brown. Man, both of those guys pissed a lot of people off. I'm glad we still have jon to carry on the legacy. Now, do we still have people who remember the Doleac jokes circa 2002-2004?

[JawJuttinAsasin]

Personally, I am biased against scoring points. .

I think you may underestimate the value points provide in terms of winning games.

[brooksfosho]

it's certainly happened before on more than one occasion. It doesn't happen every year, but it's easilly happened more than a dozen times in the years I've watched basketball. And their may be not just one, but two top 10 PGs that are rookies this year. I don't think anyone said that Irving is a top 10 player in the league, but rather that he's in the top 10 of the players who play his position. It's pretty easy to make a statistical argument. He's the 5th leading scorer of all PGs, he's 2nd in points per minute, he's 5th in PER, he's 8th in value added (so discount his PER for fewer minutes played), he's 7th in TS%. He doesn't rate as high as others in assists (22nd), so he has room to grow there, but most of the other guys lack his scoring and his efficiency.

Completely agreed - it's fairly easy to make the statistical argument for both him and Rubio. I'm just one of those people who doesn't consider a guy who plays great throughout his first few games to be a top positional player, is all. Kyrie's stats are absolutely nuts; isn't he something like top 10 all time in PER as a rookie? That's very good company to be in. But to say he's ahead of even Lowry or T.Parker right now wouldn't be a correct statement. Even the most obscure guys in the league can have a highlight season or two. Once we see what Irving can do after 100+ games will the tale start telling.

[Keith]

Comparing Irving to Rubio is absurd. Rubio has been playing in professional leagues in Europe for the past seven years. He's played against NBA level talent for years and has had the opportunity to develop his overall game. Basketball has been Rubio's sole responsibility for 1/3 of his life, its his job. Kyrie Irving has probably been in class for more hours then he's spent playing basketball over the last seven years. The fact that this discussion is even close should tell you something.