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  1. #3256
    Team Player The Hill's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by b00bie View Post
    Seriously

    Congrats guys, you found the one scenario where I would actually prefer they take Weeden.

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  3. #3257
    Hall of Famer AZ_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Would you trade a 1st for Brees? He is 33 years old. Yes he is proven, but only has 4-7 years left.

    My point is if Weeden was 22 he would be in the conversation as best overall qb, he is that good. But he is not 22, at 28 he just might be worth the risk taking in the 2nd. I think he is going to be good in the nfl.

    Also the season starts Sept 09th, he turns 29 October 14th,. He will be 28 not 29 at the start of the season. He will be 29 by week 6. I just hate how people exaggerate to try and prove a point.
    If anyone even had a moment of thought in which they used this logic, I hope they laughed it off as retarded.

    Trading a first for a multi pro bowl QB is slightly different than taking for a 29 year old rookie coming from an collegiate offense with zero semblance to an NFL scheme which has produced numerous college QBs who were overdrafted.

    If Weeden were 22, he would be a solid prospect because he would not be fully grown and developed.

    In reality, he's a 29 year old with the talent of a 22 year old...and that...doesn't project well.

  4. #3258
    Oh My God! cdt's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Would you trade a 1st for Brees? He is 33 years old. Yes he is proven, but only has 4-7 years left.

    My point is if Weeden was 22 he would be in the conversation as best overall qb, he is that good. But he is not 22, at 28 he just might be worth the risk taking in the 2nd. I think he is going to be good in the nfl.
    The problem is he isn't 22. He's 28 and will be 29 when the season starts, his ceiling is nowhere close to Andrew Luck or Robert Griffin. He's never going to be able to have 4-5 years of NFL experience before he enters his prime. Weeden basically has to come in and blow it out of the water. He doesn't have a ton of time to "take his lumps" like the other guys have, that's the problem.

    You basically have to bring this guy in, and start him right away. For the 1,000th time....being a minor league ballplayer will not make his transition into the NFL smoother. He then has to pack about 4-5 years worth of lumps (about what it took Eli) into one rookie season. Then in year 2 he's 30 years old and he still likely has no playoff experience. It may take another year or 2 to get this Browns team to the playoffs. He then will likely have to take some lumps in the post season like a lot of QBs do before he gets over the hump. Now he's 34-35 if his body is still holding up. We then have what a 2-4 year window at best to win a Superbowl? There are so many things that have to happen for this guy to have a successful career that I just don't like it any bit whatsoever.
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  6. #3259
    Oh My God! cdt's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    I just feel like this year is the year to really overload this team with as many playmakers on offense as possible. Force Colt to lose the job and prove he'll never be a legit starting QB. If it happens, fine then we know and we don't have people saying that we gave up on him too early and Drew Brees this and that...

    Next year we're likely again Top 5 and have a crack at the best QBs next year that are likely better than Tannehill and Weeden. I don't want to take a QB this year for the sake of taking one and be stuck like the Vikings and Jaguars are. I believe more in Ponder but Gabbert is trash and they're stuck with him another horrendous year until they'd be able to go down the QB route again. I don't want to lock myself into a marginal upgrade and be at the top of the draft next season.

    Add some WRs, RBs and OL help and let Colt sink or swim and next year we bring a rookie QB in and he doesn't have to play with CFL level talent on offense.
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  8. #3260
    Catch the wave Gary Barnidge's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cdt View Post
    The problem is he isn't 22. He's 28 and will be 29 when the season starts, his ceiling is nowhere close to Andrew Luck or Robert Griffin. He's never going to be able to have 4-5 years of NFL experience before he enters his prime. Weeden basically has to come in and blow it out of the water. He doesn't have a ton of time to "take his lumps" like the other guys have, that's the problem.

    You basically have to bring this guy in, and start him right away. For the 1,000th time....being a minor league ballplayer will not make his transition into the NFL smoother. He then has to pack about 4-5 years worth of lumps (about what it took Eli) into one rookie season. Then in year 2 he's 30 years old and he still likely has no playoff experience. It may take another year or 2 to get this Browns team to the playoffs. He then will likely have to take some lumps in the post season like a lot of QBs do before he gets over the hump. Now he's 34-35 if his body is still holding up. We then have what a 2-4 year window at best to win a Superbowl? There are so many things that have to happen for this guy to have a successful career that I just don't like it any bit whatsoever.
    Here's the thing though, I think he does have the skill to come in and play well immediately. Will he be a pro bowler? Not likely. Will he make rookie mistakes? Absolutely. However he isn't going to need the time that guys like Tannehill will. He isn't going to need to develop arm strength like a Barkley would. He doesn't need to develop accuracy like Brock would. His arm is ready now, he's smart enough to get the rest with some coaching.

    Again, you want Trent at 4. Isn't that just as risky? At this point your banking on a guy having no injury problems and having to have a similar career to all-time great RBs just to still be in the league at 30. That's 8 years, pretty much the same time frame I'd give Weeden.

    What this argument really comes down to is skill. I think he is much more skilled than you guys give him credit for. Thus I wouldn't mind him in the second. You guys see him as average at best and thus don't want to touch him. I don't want him just to take a QB, I watched him play a lot and think he'll be good. So I don't care as much if we only have him for 8 years as opposed to 15.
    Last edited by Gary Barnidge; 04-19-2012 at 04:32 PM.
    Ass pennies

  9. #3261
    Hall of Famer AZ_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    We don't even think he can be a Pro Bowler one day?

  10. #3262
    Oh My God! cdt's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Shakalu View Post
    Here's the thing though, I think he does have the skill to come in and play well immediately. Will he be a pro bowler? Not likely? Will he make rookie mistakes? Absolutely. However he isn't going to need the time that guys like Tannehill will. He isn't going to need to develop arm strength like a Barkley would. His arm is ready now, he's smart enough to get the rest with some coaching.

    Again, you want Trent at 4. Isn't that just as risky? At this point your banking on a guy having no injury problems and having to have a similar career to all-time great RBs just to still be in the league at 30. That's 8 years, pretty much the same time frame I'd give Weeden.
    Injury is all relative IMO. Weeden could get sacked and land on his right shoulder and be damaged as well. I'm advocating for Trent as well as an RB later on to spell him. I don't want to run Trent into the ground at all like the Chiefs did Larry Johnson. Trent isn't just the top of the RB class like Ingram was last year. The guy is a franchise caliber player and I think he'll be a game changer for 8 years. I don't feel like Weeden will be a game changer for 8 years. I feel like he'll be mediocre to above average for 5-7 years. I just don't feel like he's going to be a guy worth drafting. I feel like he's a guy you're replacing in 2 years.
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  12. #3263
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cdt View Post
    Injury is all relative IMO. Weeden could get sacked and land on his right shoulder and be damaged as well. I'm advocating for Trent as well as an RB later on to spell him. I don't want to run Trent into the ground at all like the Chiefs did Larry Johnson. Trent isn't just the top of the RB class like Ingram was last year. The guy is a franchise caliber player and I think he'll be a game changer for 8 years. I don't feel like Weeden will be a game changer for 8 years. I feel like he'll be mediocre to above average for 5-7 years. I just don't feel like he's going to be a guy worth drafting. I feel like he's a guy you're replacing in 2 years.
    But if he's better than Colt for two years it will be totally worth it.


    I think...

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  14. #3264
    Catch the wave Gary Barnidge's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cdt View Post
    Injury is all relative IMO. Weeden could get sacked and land on his right shoulder and be damaged as well. I'm advocating for Trent as well as an RB later on to spell him. I don't want to run Trent into the ground at all like the Chiefs did Larry Johnson. Trent isn't just the top of the RB class like Ingram was last year. The guy is a franchise caliber player and I think he'll be a game changer for 8 years. I don't feel like Weeden will be a game changer for 8 years. I feel like he'll be mediocre to above average for 5-7 years. I just don't feel like he's going to be a guy worth drafting. I feel like he's a guy you're replacing in 2 years.
    This is my point exactly. I think Weeden will be a guy who can actually win you games, for 8 years. I don't mind Trent either, my point is a lot of things have to go right for him to have a successful career. In order for him to get to those 8 years he has to have a career like LT. He could just as easily be Earl Campbell and fall out of the league in 5 years because of his running style.

    b00bie's just being an ass and putting words in my mouth so it's not even worth a response.
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  15. #3265
    Team Player The Hill's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Greg Cosell had write-ups on the "other" QB prospects in this year's class: Kirk Cousins, Brock Osweiler and Brandon Weeden. He doesn't rank them, but he does provide insight into their strengths and weaknesses in their current games.

    Kirk Cousins
    At Michigan State, Cousins played in an offense that featured NFL route combinations and progression reads. He operated effectively both under center and in the shotgun. At his best, Cousins was a timing and anticipation passer who was quick and decisive with his reads. He was a plant-and-throw quarterback, most effective when he could hit his back foot and deliver the ball on time, in rhythm. He was efficient in the play-action pass game, with the often overlooked ability to get his head around quickly after he turned his back to the defense. As a corollary, he executed well the boot-action game, showing accuracy on the move.

    Extensive tape study also illustrated some significant concerns. Immediately evident was his inability to drive the ball at the intermediate and deeper levels. He was a touch passer without much snap to his throws. That must be accompanied by outstanding decision making and precise ball location. Cousins was not as consistent as he needs to be in both areas given his arm-strength limitations. He also needed functional space in the pocket to be efficient. He had a tendency to drift backward in response to pressure. Pocket movement is certainly an attribute he must work on in his transition to the NFL. His struggles in a “muddied” pocket, in the eye of the storm, must be cleaned up for him to become a quality starter.

    For Cousins to be successful, he must be managed and manipulated by the schematics of the passing game and the play calling. At this point, and that’s the critical caveat, he’s primarily a pocket passer with neither great size nor the overall skills of a pocket passer. The specific concepts of the pass game and how he’s coached will be the determining factors in his development.
    Brock Osweiler
    The 6-foot-7 Arizona State prospect is very intriguing. He has a naturally live arm with a lot of velocity on his throws. What jumped out right away, however, was his tendency to overstride when he delivered the ball, especially on intermediate throws. That lowered his arm angle significantly and at times forced him to push the ball, hindering both velocity and accuracy. Can that be fixed? Theoretically, any flaw that’s a function of technique can be corrected with proper coaching, but it must be addressed. You cannot be a quality NFL starter without consistent accuracy; it’s as simple as that.

    A couple of positives stood out the more I watched Osweiler. First, he was a confident passer, willing to pull the trigger on tight throws into small windows. There’s always a balance between sticking throws and forcing the ball, but the aggressive mentality to let it loose is a positive as he transitions to the NFL. Secondly, Osweiler showed the courage to look down the gun barrel and make difficult throws in the face of collapsing pressure. That’s a defining attribute of high-level NFL quarterback play.

    The bowl loss to Boise State provided a microcosm of Osweiler’s concerns. His pocket command was erratic. At times he was patient and delivered strikes, but in other instances he perceived pressure that was not there and broke down unnecessarily. He locked onto his primary receiver. He was inaccurate on some routine throws.

    The raw throwing ability is there, along with the other traits I mentioned. But Osweiler is far from a finished product.
    Brandon Weeden
    When Weeden has time and functional space to deliver the ball comfortably, he’s the purest and best pocket passer in this draft class. He has outstanding lower-body mechanics; he was balanced with his left knee flexed at the proper angle, and he drove off his back foot with excellent weight transfer and core body torque. He was a short strider, which made him deliver the ball taller than his 6-foot-3½. You could make the argument that Weeden was a robotic player, in a positive way. He repeated his fundamentals throw after throw.

    He was particularly good on seam throws, and they’re not easy. They require a delicate combination of touch, to get the ball over the underneath defender, and firm but not powerful velocity, to prevent the safety from factoring in to the throw. Weeden made many of those throws. Overall, he threw with a nice balance of touch and velocity, and his ball location was consistently precise. All those attributes translate well to the NFL.

    Of course, in the NFL, the ideal scenario of a comfortable, secure pocket does not happen quite as often as quarterbacks would like. You must be able to function effectively in the eye of the storm or you won’t play on Sundays. That’s where Weeden had some problems. The sample was small, given how well he was protected, but it was there nonetheless. When blitzed, Weeden struggled with both recognition and execution. Mentally, there were times he panicked, and physically, he did not exhibit the kind of subtle pocket movement that must be part of a pocket passer’s game in the NFL.

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  17. #3266
    Playin' for keeps... Spectre's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Easily my biggest draft pet peeve this year is people trying to turn Weeden into some super prepared, pro-ready prospect who will provide a decade of good QB play as though his age doesn't matter.

    The thing that's nice about drafting a 22 year old is that if they don't get it in the first year, it's not the end of the world... they can still take a multiple years after that to polish their game and become a franchise QB. Rodgers didn't get going until his 4th year. Brees was trash until his 4th year. Eli Manning didn't start to blossom until his 5th. I can go on but there's no need to. At least when a guy is young and struggles, teams can keep riding him out in hopes that the light clicks on.

    Let's pretend for a minute that instead of being 22, Brandon Weeden is a 28 year old (going on 29) who spent 5 years playing baseball (which he quit after an injury to his throwing shoulder) and only has 2 seasons of college starting experience. Let's also pretend that it's possible that maturity doesn't equal NFL readiness and that he stinks it up like pretty much every other rookie QB on the planet. How much development time should the team that drafts him dedicate next year to a nearly 30 year old developmental player? Consider also that QBs playing good ball until they're 40 is the exception to the rule and that there's a very good chance his skills are in serious decline in his mid 30's.

    If Weeden WERE 22, I'd want to sit him for a year because he doesn't have a ton of experience and he has some issues to work out. How then does aging him 6-7 years and giving him 0 extra college experience suddenly make him a great player as a rookie? Maturity? Sorry, I don't see it.

    IMO, drafting Weeden is a trap and the team that does it will be looking at drafting another QB next year minus a 1st/2nd round pick from 2012.

    I seriously cannot, CANNOT wait until the draft is over and Weeden is (hopefully) on another team. The thought of us wasting a 1st/2nd on him makes me nauseous.

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  19. #3267
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    After watching Heckert's presser, I got the vibe that Claiborne will be our pick. Heckert mentioned the value of CBs and really seemed to speak in a way suggesting he was almost trying to contain his excitement. He also seemed to suggest that he doesn't see much difference in the talent level between Claiborne and Patrick Peterson.

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  21. #3268
    Catch the wave Gary Barnidge's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    After watching Heckert's presser, I got the vibe that Claiborne will be our pick. Heckert mentioned the value of CBs and really seemed to speak in a way suggesting he was almost trying to contain his excitement. He also seemed to suggest that he doesn't see much difference in the talent level between Claiborne and Patrick Peterson.
    Thanks for the insight. I didn't see the presser so I can't try to read his demeanor. Claiborne is one of the most skilled corners to come out. Peterson is more athletic and faster, Claiborne is more skilled and polished. I really don't envy Heckert. There are several scenarios that could play out at number 4 and I think he's going to catch shit for basically whatever choice he makes.
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Shakalu View Post
    Thanks for the insight. I didn't see the presser so I can't try to read his demeanor. Claiborne is one of the most skilled corners to come out. Peterson is more athletic and faster, Claiborne is more skilled and polished. I really don't envy Heckert. There are several scenarios that could play out at number 4 and I think he's going to catch shit for basically whatever choice he makes.
    The way he sounded though during his press conference is he doesn't care what people outside the organization will say. With that said I think its between Claiborne and Richardson, but I have no idea who they are going to take. If I had to guess I would say Mo.

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  25. #3270
    Oh My God! cdt's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2012 NFL Draft Rumor Thread

    I just feel like with Weeden's age and everything he should in a normal draft and not one where everyone is mongering over QBs be a guy that the Steelers, Texans or Lions draft. I think he's a 3rd round talent given everything you have to consider with him. I think with the premium put on QBs (which I don't agree with) that he's a guy you draft and use as an insurance policy if you have a good team with an injury prone QB like Roethlisberger, Schaub and Stafford.

    A QB injury derailed the Texans and has done so to a ton of teams over the years. Weeden is just not a guy that you build around, we need a build around franchise QB if you're changing from Colt. QB isn't a position where you make slight improvement. It's a position that you either go all in on or you hang tight until that moment prevents itself. RG3 is an all in type of player. Weeden is not.
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