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  1. #31
    I need your wifes number
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    Do you understand what you are arguing? I know for a fact you can purchase health care. If you took a brief case full of $100 bills into a hospital they would give you whatever treatment you need.

    So you can purchase it, you just can't afford it.

    Why do you think it is so expensive? The doctors and insurance companies are just gouging customers? Or is it because the government has printed trillions of dollars and forced it into the health care industry?

    You are arguing for lower prices, not access. So the options are to stop subsidizing medical care, which will bring prices down dramatically, or have the government put price controls on health care, which will accomplish what price controls always accomplish, shortages of the product or service they are suppressing the price of. Remember the gas lines in the 70s? Do you think we ran out of oil?

    So you can have cheaper medical care by the getting the government out or by having them deny access to some while allowing access to others. (Yes that is how universal health care works, access really isn't universal. A bureaucrat essentially decides who gets health care and who doesn't.)
    Yeah you're right, if I was rich I would be just fine. But how will a free market healthcare system help me afford it? How much will the price of care drop so I can pay cash? Or do you think insurance companies will just start covering me without government intervention?

  2. #32
    Rise. Powerslave's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Quote Originally Posted by InGilbertWeTrust View Post
    Canada has contributed nothing to this world. (Don't say Hockey or Maple Syrup because nobody gives a shit about either)

  3. #33
    Back in 2002 OptimusPrime's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Quote Originally Posted by cavman View Post
    Yeah you're right, if I was rich I would be just fine. But how will a free market healthcare system help me afford it? How much will the price of care drop so I can pay cash? Or do you think insurance companies will just start covering me without government intervention?
    I can't tell you how much health care would cost if we had a free market, but I can tell you it would be a lot cheaper than it is now. I do know that the fascist system we have now prices people out of access, and I do know that a socialist system would have to arbitrarily deny people access. Is that a solution or just a different form of the problem?

  4. #34
    OSU Alum KCOTT's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Putting money into something only makes costs higher, that's what a lot of people don't realize.




    If an older woman who goes after younger men is a "cougar," is an older man who goes after younger boys a "nittany lion?"

  5. #35
    I need your wifes number
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    I can't tell you how much health care would cost if we had a free market, but I can tell you it would be a lot cheaper than it is now. I do know that the fascist system we have now prices people out of access, and I do know that a socialist system would have to arbitrarily deny people access. Is that a solution or just a different form of the problem?
    I just know that in a for profit system I'm not profitable, ever. I know that if you get rid of medicaid and programs like that people with disabilities will have nowhere to go. My hope is that the healthcare law will break the backs of the insurance companies leaving room only for a single payer system.

  6. #36
    Back in 2002 OptimusPrime's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Quote Originally Posted by cavman View Post
    I just know that in a for profit system I'm not profitable, ever. I know that if you get rid of medicaid and programs like that people with disabilities will have nowhere to go. My hope is that the healthcare law will break the backs of the insurance companies leaving room only for a single payer system.
    I understand that might be better for you than the current system (as long as you aren't one of the unlucky ones who are denied access). It is fine to act in your self interest. I am just saying that it would not be a solution to the problem of people not having access to health care. It would just randomize the group of people that don't have access to it.

  7. #37
    Back in 2002 OptimusPrime's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    And it might not be profitable to insure you, but to go in and pay cash for treatment is always profitable. What matters is the price. Government subsidies and mandates and inflation have exploded the cost of health care just like they have college tuition and oil and housing until the bubble burst and everything they touch. If they got out of the way you would be free to earn as much money as you can and it might be affordable for you to get care.

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  9. #38
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Quote Originally Posted by InGilbertWeTrust View Post
    Canada has contributed nothing to this world. (Don't say Hockey or Maple Syrup because nobody gives a shit about either)
    nations and geographical locations do nothing to contribute to the world. human beings do.
    http://realcavsfans.com/signaturepics/sigpic9395_2.gif

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  11. #39
    Fighting the good fight! gourimoko's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Guys, most of the Western countries of the world had, at one time, a free market health care system. We had one in the United States. Completely unregulated. People died directly as a result of not being able to afford medical care. It's barbaric.

    Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, all programs designed to insure the poor, the elderly, and those not able to care for themselves are at least somewhat cared for by the services most others can afford. We do not let the sick languish in the gutters of our streets in the interests of maintaining a principle of economics. It's inhumane, and for most people, the concept is simply intolerable. The majority of Americans in this democracy would pay taxes towards providing health care coverage for those who cannot afford it themselves; especially the infirmed and disabled like Cavman.

    Railing against government regulations is one thing, but one would need to provide a tremendous case against the system of Medicare and Medicaid (beyond the devaluation of currency which would effect both public and private insurance) in order to justify the comments made in this thread thus far.

    Let me be clear, I am not for Obamacare. But I am for a government-run, privately-owned system and if that were not possible I would be in favor of Medicare-for-All; or quite simply, a single-payer health insurance system.

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  13. #40
    Back in 2002 OptimusPrime's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Quote Originally Posted by gourimoko View Post
    Guys, most of the Western countries of the world had, at one time, a free market health care system. We had one in the United States. Completely unregulated. People died directly as a result of not being able to afford medical care. It's barbaric.

    Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, all programs designed to insure the poor, the elderly, and those not able to care for themselves are at least somewhat cared for by the services most others can afford. We do not let the sick languish in the gutters of our streets in the interests of maintaining a principle of economics. It's inhumane, and for most people, the concept is simply intolerable. The majority of Americans in this democracy would pay taxes towards providing health care coverage for those who cannot afford it themselves; especially the infirmed and disabled like Cavman.

    Railing against government regulations is one thing, but one would need to provide a tremendous case against the system of Medicare and Medicaid (beyond the devaluation of currency which would effect both public and private insurance) in order to justify the comments made in this thread thus far.

    Let me be clear, I am not for Obamacare. But I am for a government-run, privately-owned system and if that were not possible I would be in favor of Medicare-for-All; or quite simply, a single-payer health insurance system.
    That is like saying people are starving in Africa because of a free market in food. It is ridiculous. They are starving because they don't have enough food because they haven't saved and invested enough in agriculture. Their lack of a free market throughout history is why people starve in Africa.

    150 years ago people died because they prescribed leeches to treat the flu, not because the government didn't withhold treatment from one person to give it to another.

    The market economy is what has single handedly increased the standard of living in every liberalized economy in the world. When you have capitalists investing in production, you get more innovation, more products, lower prices, and increased access. No one was dying in the streets before Medicare, although by then the money printing machine and government backed medical cartel would have priced people out of health care without it. Instead of solving the problem, they created Medicare to put a band aid on it until the prices rise high enough that the government can't confiscate enough private money to pay for it.

    Yes people pay taxes for it. That doesn't mean anything. If the government passed a one time $10 tax to pay for a brand new car for every American, does that mean every is entitled to new car because they paid for it? Ignoring the immorality of seizing the property of everyone to pay for services that not everyone wants or uses, they simply don't take enough in taxes. They can raise taxes, and if they manage to collect more that way, then they will have patched up the hole in the raft for a little while longer, but eventually they will have two choices, fix the price of health care, which will leave untold numbers of people without access to care whether they can pay or not, or get out of the business of health care.

  14. #41
    Veteran 3D Poker Champion NumberTris Champion Shape and Color Champion Raining Day Champion Sneaky's Road Trip - Istanbul Champion Up Champion Code Breakers Champion JDeezy's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorFan View Post
    nations and geographical locations do nothing to contribute to the world. human beings do.
    Makes sense a Canadian has no national pride...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Simmons
    Phil Jackson ran the Triangle offense. Mike Brown runs the "If you cross midcourt with the ball, you get to keep it and shoot" offense.


  15. #42
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    That is like saying people are starving in Africa because of a free market in food. It is ridiculous. They are starving because they don't have enough food because they haven't saved and invested enough in agriculture. Their lack of a free market throughout history is why people starve in Africa.
    Whoah whoah whoah hey now saying lack of a free market causes African famine is like saying advanced extended-voyage sailing technology was responsible for the African slave trade... You're missing some bigger culprits here...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Simmons
    Phil Jackson ran the Triangle offense. Mike Brown runs the "If you cross midcourt with the ball, you get to keep it and shoot" offense.


  16. #43
    Back in 2002 OptimusPrime's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    `
    Quote Originally Posted by Distracted View Post
    Whoah whoah whoah hey now saying lack of a free market causes African famine is like saying advanced extended-voyage sailing technology was responsible for the African slave trade... You're missing some bigger culprits here...
    I don't get your analogy. I said that they don't have enough food in Africa because they have not invested enough in agriculture in the past. A free market and private property rights are the way you get that investment. A government printing up the money doesn't create real investment, as they have learned in Africa. You need real savings from free people that are invested in capital goods that increase production. Basic economics.

    Your slave trade analogy is a typical strawman. Sure the shipping technology had to be there for the slave trade to work. It had to be there for any trade to work. That doesn't mean you blame it on the capital investments of the past. If the African people every develop the infrastructure to increase their food production, they could also trade some of that food for weapons to go out and slaughter a bunch of their own people. Does that mean we should make sure they can't grow food in case they do something evil with it?

  17. #44
    Fighting the good fight! gourimoko's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    That is like saying people are starving in Africa because of a free market in food. It is ridiculous.
    People are starving in Africa because of perpetual poverty. If you're saying that's the case in the United States, you'd be wrong. The situation is not analogous. Excluding the Great Depression, Americans have never really known poverty on a massive scale; yet the cost of health care is exorbitant to the point of being out of reach even to upper middle class families who are self-employed. Not having insurance, or not being insurable (government regulations) makes health care access literally unattainable for more than 80% of the population when it would be most needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    They are starving because they don't have enough food because they haven't saved and invested enough in agriculture. Their lack of a free market throughout history is why people starve in Africa.
    Are you serious? This statement is way off base Optimus. The problems in Africa have next to nothing to do with self-governing economics and almost everything to do with centuries of colonialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    150 years ago people died because they prescribed leeches to treat the flu, not because the government didn't withhold treatment from one person to give it to another.
    And 70 years ago people died because they didn't have money to treat what were at the time very treatable diseases. Ten seconds ago an American died because an insurance company refused to pay for treatment for one reason or another. My own aunt died of lung cancer because she already had four surgeries and somehow exceeded some obscure mathematical cost-to-benefit ratio that more or less rationed her care from a pool of funds. I don't want to engage in a series of anecdotal arguments, however, the point being is that you are mistaken if you think that historically or even presently people don't die because they are unable to pay.

    Health care is prohibitively expensive, and most are led to believe that having health insurance means that when health care costs become too expensive the company holding the policy will pick up the slack. The entire point of the Affordable Health Care act is to stop the common practice of insurance companies dumping sick people in life or death situations because it's simply not cost effective to pay for their treatment. Government regulation is absolutely required because the free market completely failed. I cannot understand your argument against the reality of the situation. The free market, as it relates to health insurance, never worked to begin with - as the companies involved abused their positions and policyholders routinely and prevented legal action by colluding with common contracts wherein the fine print absolves the insurance company of wrongdoing in most, if not all, instances that they drop a policy even if the patient is in dire need of care.

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    The market economy is what has single handedly increased the standard of living in every liberalized economy in the world. When you have capitalists investing in production, you get more innovation, more products, lower prices, and increased access.
    This isn't always true. Products are sold for whatever the market will bare (i.e., Apple products). Capitalism does not always create lower prices as there is currency that devalues, property depreciation, inflationary aspects brought about through lending practices of the banking system, cost of goods, salary and wage increases, global competition with developing countries, etc. When speaking of insurance and health care, it's not so easy to slap together a profitable product to sell at a lower cost than your competitor. But more importantly you should be careful of you're insistence on a purely capitalist approach. You should note that you're speaking of hypothetical models that only exist and work within a bubble, completely outside reality - that have no actual historical evidence of ever having worked the way the theory predicts. There is no historic evidence that a free market of a service like health insurance will ultimately lead to lower prices.

    We've seen this play out time and time again when liberals regulate, prices go up, when conservatives deregulate, prices go up. It's just not as simple as continually saying, year in and year out, "free markets solve all ails." They have they're function. Just as government regulations do.

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    No one was dying in the streets before Medicare,
    Are you serious? The elderly died all the time before Medicare. How can you possibly say that?

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    although by then the money printing machine and government backed medical cartel would have priced people out of health care without it. Instead of solving the problem, they created Medicare to put a band aid on it until the prices rise high enough that the government can't confiscate enough private money to pay for it.
    What?? How does the "medical cartel" benefit from Medicare more so than the recipients of the program? It's one of the best health care access programs in the world. And while it is underfunded presently, reform (expansion to younger people and raising the taxation rate) is far preferable than scrapping the program.

    Remember, Medicare is for persons over 65. Who over 65 wouldn't want Medicare? Go out and ask 10 people over 65 if they'd prefer to pay for private insurance and go without Medicare. Good luck with that.

    Point being: it's senseless to just knock programs because they're "big government." That's being an ideologue. Rather, look at the net benefit to society and humanity and evaluate from that standpoint. Would we really be better off without government intervention in the health insurance/care industry? Really? If that's you're argument, I'd like to hear how you can back that up with some amount of evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    Yes people pay taxes for it. That doesn't mean anything. If the government passed a one time $10 tax to pay for a brand new car for every American, does that mean every is entitled to new car because they paid for it?
    Have no idea what you mean by this..

    But if you're asking me are people "entitled" to health care? I'd say yes. I believe that health care is a right of all the people of the United States and that no person should be denied life-saving care for financial reasons. The government, and therefore the people, should pay. We are the only Western nation where that statement is not the law of the land.

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    Ignoring the immorality of seizing the property of everyone to pay for services that not everyone wants or uses, they simply don't take enough in taxes.
    This single statement ignores the fact that the people govern themselves by way of government and that they fund said government via taxation. It isn't immoral because we live in a republic where taxation happens through a public legislative process. It isn't theft, it's a tax.

    Furthermore, this anarchist reasoning just doesn't make sense if we simultaneously hold that government has a function, that government must exist in some form, and that government has the power to tax the people to fund those functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPrime View Post
    They can raise taxes, and if they manage to collect more that way, then they will have patched up the hole in the raft for a little while longer, but eventually they will have two choices, fix the price of health care, which will leave untold numbers of people without access to care whether they can pay or not, or get out of the business of health care.
    Your two solutions create a false dilemma where one does not exist. You presuppose and simultaneously assert that the cost of health insurance will continually rise without factoring the reasons for the recent trends. In 10-15 years the costs of health insurance will likely plateau as the aging baby boomers reach their average life expectancy. Standards of living and quality of life are actually increasing. And yes, people are living longer, but without as much need for medical intervention. To that end, a universal mandate for health insurance (one that's legal) would reduce costs tremendously. Creating a system of preventative care and a stock exchange of health insurance securities would also use free market principles to lower costs of coverage by trading bundled risks at different rates.

    In summation, I think it unwise to let health insurance companies regulate and police themselves in a completely "free" market. It historically leads to corruption, price fixing (by the corporations), and the least beneficial outcome for the clients of these services. A better solution would be for the people to use their collective power to bargain with the companies that provide these services and receive the lowest rates possible. The best tool for such a collective bargaining would be the Congress acting as a representative of the People of the United States.

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  19. #45
    heady polska2211's Avatar
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    Default Re: My country disgusts me

    Jesus Christ, people need to stop relying on ECON 101 arguments when talking about large scale things like the economy, the health care industry, etc. it doesn't work that way. just saying "free market will solve all of our problems" isn't passable anymore, because in reality it doesnt. an industry that has completely inelastic demand (healthcare), needs to be regulated to keep prices down, because simple supply and demand will not keep the prices down. people need to be in good health, thats common sense. buying health care isnt like going to best buy and buying a new tv or stereo system, you can live without those things. you need your health, its a human need. the "free market" has no leverage on the consumers side of the transaction because health care is a necessity, not a luxury.

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