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  1. #226
    The Paterfamilias RedBlackAttack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    I thought this would be posted somewhere in Cavs Talk, but I looked around and didn't see it, so here goes... What an awful review of the Cavs moves this offseason by Grantland writer Andrew Sharp. He graded every team in the NBA. Somehow, the Cavs received a D.

    Cavs

    There's been a lot of praise for the calculated risk the Cavs are taking with Andrew Bynum. I live with a Sixers fan, who sent me this Bynum quote from December when I asked about his health: "There's nothing I can do about it. It's arthritis in the knees. Cartilage is missing. That's not going to regrow itself. Maybe in the future, next three to five years, there may be something out there that really does help. "

    Uhh … Good luck with that, Cleveland.

    The Bynum move fits with every other move the Cavs have made recently, including their Jarrett Jack/Anthony Bennett decisions this summer, Dion Waiters last June, Tristan Thompson in 2011, etc. The notion that this was "smart" for the Cavs fits with every other "smart" move the Cavs have made over the past few years. It's defensible, but probably not actually smart.

    Grade: D
    Feel free to peruse his other opinions on league teams/moves...

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...-nba-offseason

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  3. #227
    Solo Cup getBUCKED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack View Post
    I thought this would be posted somewhere in Cavs Talk, but I looked around and didn't see it, so here goes... What an awful review of the Cavs moves this offseason by Grantland writer Andrew Sharp. He graded every team in the NBA. Somehow, the Cavs received a D.



    Feel free to peruse his other opinions on league teams/moves...

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...-nba-offseason
    This might be the dumbest thing I've read on Grantland. Doesn't even recognize the low risk/high reward signing of Bynum, doesn't give reasoning for hating on the Jarrett Jack signing, and most likely has never seen Anthony Bennett play in his life. He doesn't only stick to our offseason moves this season, but he goes on to criticize the last two drafts of the Cavs.

    Lost all respect I have for Sharp before he could even get any.

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  5. #228
    Valuable Trading Chip D-Wreck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack View Post
    I thought this would be posted somewhere in Cavs Talk, but I looked around and didn't see it, so here goes... What an awful review of the Cavs moves this offseason by Grantland writer Andrew Sharp. He graded every team in the NBA. Somehow, the Cavs received a D.



    Feel free to peruse his other opinions on league teams/moves...

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...-nba-offseason
    His irrational love for everything the Pistons have done makes me question his basketball intelligence more than his criticism of the Cavs.

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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Wreck View Post
    His irrational love for everything the Pistons have done makes me question his basketball intelligence more than his criticism of the Cavs.
    The thing is with Detroit, if Drummond stays healthy and plays more, that alone, plus internal improvement of some of their other young players, may be enough to improve Detroit significantly this year, and then everyone will be singing the praises of Joe Dumars for having brought in Josh Smith. It's like Dumars couldn't wait for the last series of bad FA signings in 2009 to have worked their way through the system (having been forced to package one of them with a pick to get rid of him)....

    Anyway, back to Grant...Of course, I haven't always agreed with all of his moves, but I am on the whole a big fan of his. He has a long term plan, he puts lots of time and energy into his work, he knows the league, he makes moves he wants to make, not ones he is forced into doing, and he is patient. Over his 3 year tenure, most everyone with any sense knows his performance can't be measured by wins and losses on the court. But that has now changed -- this off season he has exposed himself somewhat to potential criticism, and I am a bit concerned for him because if the team doesn't live up to expectations (which are a bit inflated), he will be the one blamed.

  7. #230
    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Chris Grant. Well, he's that GM who thinks he's smarter than everybody else.That much is clear as evidenced by a series of bizarre draft choices that left fans and pundits alike dumbfounded. So far, they've worked out....all right. Too soon to tell. For our sake as Cavs fans, let's hope Grant's self-assessment as the smartest man in the room is indeed correct. One thing I know for sure is this Cavaliers rebuild is not viewed nearly as favorably around the media and fans of other teams as it is by Cavs fans (particularly, this forum, which appears to be on board with almost every move so far). My hope is that after this year, it becomes clear Grant really is smarter than everyone else and everything starts to click and we can talk massive shit to all the people who bashed the Cavs for taking Bennett/Waiters/Thompson etc.
    The artist formerly known as cmstophe

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  9. #231
    Veteran Czvosec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Wreck View Post
    His irrational love for everything the Pistons have done makes me question his basketball intelligence more than his criticism of the Cavs.
    I could be wrong, but I think he's a Pistons fan.

  10. #232
    Send Sideshow to ASG Pioneer10's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    I still don't understand the Josh Smith signing. Drummond and Monroe should be getting at least 35 minutes a night and to surround them you probably would want a stretch 4. The problem is Josh Smith plays best when he's not anywhere close to the 3 point line.

    Also they're backcourt seems troubled to me. Knight is not a PG and instead of getting a combo G to help Knight, they ended up with a true SG in Pope in the draft. I hope they expect Billups to a player/coach type of deal because looked washed up on the court in LA last year. Drummond and Monroe could be the future version of the Lakers Gasol/Bynum frontcourt from a few years ago, but they really look weak to me elsewhere
    There is a tension, peculiar to basketball, between the interests of the team and the interests of the individual. The game continually tempts the people who play it to do things that are not in the interest of the group.
    Michael Lewis


  11. #233
    Hall of Famer Rich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Czvosec View Post
    I could be wrong, but I think he's a Pistons fan.
    I mean the guy gave the Rockets a C+. It's either a joke article, or he's a joke. I'll go with the former. Just sort of a humorous deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. MacPhisto View Post
    I still hold that Kevin Love is a cancer. This team will win 50 without him, it will win 45 with him.

  12. #234
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Chris Grant. Well, he's that GM who thinks he's smarter than everybody else.That much is clear as evidenced by a series of bizarre draft choices that left fans and pundits alike dumbfounded. So far, they've worked out....all right. Too soon to tell. For our sake as Cavs fans, let's hope Grant's self-assessment as the smartest man in the room is indeed correct. One thing I know for sure is this Cavaliers rebuild is not viewed nearly as favorably around the media and fans of other teams as it is by Cavs fans (particularly, this forum, which appears to be on board with almost every move so far). My hope is that after this year, it becomes clear Grant really is smarter than everyone else and everything starts to click and we can talk massive shit to all the people who bashed the Cavs for taking Bennett/Waiters/Thompson etc.
    You hit the nail on the head with that post. It's not so much that Grant is a bad or good GM. It's that a lot of his moves are, shall I say, unconventional? Meaning, it's not what is "expected". So far it's still too early to tell if everything will pan out but IMO, he's a guy that doesn't like to gamble. In that, he will make the pick that will least likely bust vs. going all in for a high ceiling type player. With the exception of Kyrie (which was pretty much a no brainer), his top picks in TT, Dion and Bennett appears to have skill sets that will allow them to be contributers for a long time in the league. Whether they become all-stars remain to be seen but all 3 guys were not viewed as perrenial all-stars before they were drafted.

    Guys that were passed on such as Drummond, Jonas, McClemore, Noel, etc....were viewed as having higher ceilings than Grant's picks but they were risky due to many reasons. There comes in time when you have to roll the dices but it's a tricky proposition. A bad pick can hinder a rebuild for years but "safe" drafting doesn't always guarantee a championship contending team.

    We're in an age where advanced statistics are replacing "the eye test" scouting and will reduce the risk of "busts" further up in the lottery but I also think that relying too much on advanced stats is dangerous if you lack the "intuitive" feel for a player. I hope Chris Grant have that "intuitive feeling" for TT, Dion and Bennett.

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  14. #235
    The Bushido doctrine Homer Safari's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Quote Originally Posted by blue_kahuna View Post
    You hit the nail on the head with that post. It's not so much that Grant is a bad or good GM. It's that a lot of his moves are, shall I say, unconventional? Meaning, it's not what is "expected". So far it's still too early to tell if everything will pan out but IMO, he's a guy that doesn't like to gamble. In that, he will make the pick that will least likely bust vs. going all in for a high ceiling type player. With the exception of Kyrie (which was pretty much a no brainer), his top picks in TT, Dion and Bennett appears to have skill sets that will allow them to be contributers for a long time in the league. Whether they become all-stars remain to be seen but all 3 guys were not viewed as perrenial all-stars before they were drafted.

    Guys that were passed on such as Drummond, Jonas, McClemore, Noel, etc....were viewed as having higher ceilings than Grant's picks but they were risky due to many reasons. There comes in time when you have to roll the dices but it's a tricky proposition. A bad pick can hinder a rebuild for years but "safe" drafting doesn't always guarantee a championship contending team.

    We're in an age where advanced statistics are replacing "the eye test" scouting and will reduce the risk of "busts" further up in the lottery but I also think that relying too much on advanced stats is dangerous if you lack the "intuitive" feel for a player. I hope Chris Grant have that "intuitive feeling" for TT, Dion and Bennett.
    I think you got it wrong. The Cavs have used advanced statistics to support the "eye" test.

    Grant and his scouting organization value verastility and overall ksill stats over flashy guys who have a few nice highlight reels.

    All 7 picks including the undrafted guys acquired by the Cavs had extensive scouting by the Staff and the GM himself.

    Every guy the Cavs drafted Grant had spent time watching at their previous teams practice and Extensive interviewing with that players coach and his staff.

    Classifying these guys as just "advanced statistics" picks really underscores the amount of on hands scouting and background work the Cavs scouting department used in identifying these picks.

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  16. #236
    Blue Donkey Kong Champion Ocean Force Champion Cell Defense Champion Bird Saver Champion Jigsaw: Rocky Waters Champion Brave Old World Champion Jigsaw: Boats And Fire Hydrant Champion Jigsaw: Narrow Street Champion A Miko Tale Marionette: Another Tale Champion Balancing Mathai Champion Jigsaw: Red Toadstool Champion Jigsaw: Wood Formation Champion 4Blocks Champion CircusCircus Champion Jigsaw: Slate Mine Champion Spencer Hawes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Tornicade View Post
    I think you got it wrong. The Cavs have used advanced statistics to support the "eye" test.

    Grant and his scouting organization value verastility and overall ksill stats over flashy guys who have a few nice highlight reels.

    All 7 picks including the undrafted guys acquired by the Cavs had extensive scouting by the Staff and the GM himself.

    Every guy the Cavs drafted Grant had spent time watching at their previous teams practice and Extensive interviewing with that players coach and his staff.

    Classifying these guys as just "advanced statistics" picks really underscores the amount of on hands scouting and background work the Cavs scouting department used in identifying these picks.
    I didn't mean to say that advanced stats is taking over the "eye test". What I meant was that relying on advanced stats and being "unconventional" may not result in a team built by "conventional" drafting. I'm pretty sure the other teams around the league are investing similar resources in the amount of hands on scouting and background work. It's not like we have an advantage all of sudden because of Chris Grant.

    So far, he's been in 3 drafts, and all his high draft picks (aside from Kyrie) have created a wtf moment by fans, analysts and probably other GM's. With that, I think it's safe to say that Chris Grant has been unconventional in his drafting. So far, the jury is still out but it's safe to say that no one is calling him a "genius" around the league for his picks.

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  18. #237
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    People around the league are very complimentary of Grant's drafting.

  19. #238
    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Anglefan View Post
    People around the league are very complimentary of Grant's drafting.
    Can you post a bunch of examples? I'm not saying they are ripping him but i haven't really seen people calling him a genius either. it's way too early for that.
    The artist formerly known as cmstophe

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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    Why are you two obsessed with the word "genius"?

    Honestly, anyone who doesn't think Grant has performed very well as GM so far is an idiot and I have no desire to try to convince them. I'm not going to find for you all of the examples of people being complimentary of the Cavs' organization. They're all over the place. OR you could post a link where Grant thinks he's smarter than everybody else and I'll do as much work as you want me to. Pretty sure I've never read a criticism of him that couldn't be written off as the person just having absolutely no understanding of the situation that they're speaking on.

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  22. #240
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    Default Re: Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

    I wouldn't call Grant's picks bizarre. Maybe surprising or unconventional.

    In 2011, Jonas was close to the consensus pick at 4. Cavs passed allegedly because of concerns about his contract and whether he would come to Cleveland. There was no consensus after Jonas. Grant may have selected Thompson a little higher than the emerging consensus, but probably only a couple of slots given that Thompson was a late riser on draft boards. Kyrie was near consensus at #1.

    In 2012, with AD, MKG, and Beal off the board, I personally had no good feel who the Cavs would draft. Waiters was a late riser, and made as much sense as anyone. Harrison Barnes was probably closest to consensus, but the Cavs clearly were not big fans of his, at least not in 2012 (or since). As far as upside, I think they clearly felt Waiters had more upside than Barnes. They were reportedly intrigued with Drummond, the player on the board with the most upside, but passed.

    In 2013, there was no consensus at #1. Six players were in the conversation for #1. Cavs beat writers said more than once that Bennett was a possible choice at #1. In retrospect, Bennett makes sense. I have to believe the Cavs truly believe he has as much upside as anyone in this draft.

    So I disagree with the contention that the Cavs have not drafted for upside. They clearly have. This year, Porter, for instance, was the safe, low upside, pick. In 2012, Barnes was arguably the safe pick, at least the pick no one would have questioned. The one player clearly with higher upside that they passed on was Drummond in 2012. Some might say Noel in 2013, but given his injury status his upside is questionable.

    As far as the role of "advanced stats," clearly the Cavs do use them, but whatever they use is proprietary (based on what Windhorst and others have revealed over the years), and the importance of metrics in comparison with traditional scouting is up to debate. Also, advanced stats play a different role in scouting for the draft than they do for established NBA players. I only state this fact, which should be obvious, because so many on RCF and elsewhere conflate the two.

    I have never seen Grant called arrogant per se, though certain things that have been reported about Grant may well have led to the impression that he is arrogant. It has been reported that he is difficult to deal with, and won't trade unless he is getting exactly what he wants. Sort of like his mentor Danny Ferry. I personally think this characteristic is a strength. Sometimes the perfect can be the enemy of the good, but the Cavs have been in a position to be patient. Of course, people who express this sort of opinion about Grant have their reasons for doing so, such as improving their bargaining position.

    It has also been reported that the Cavs have their own approach to drafting and have invested a lot of time and money in the process, and that they strongly believe in it. Some are bound to interpret the fact that the Cavs' scouting/drafting system results in different decisions from the conventional thinking as arrogance.

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