Racial Tension in the U.S.

Yeah of course I was talking about how people fly the Confederate flag. Sorry guys I was driving from San Diego to San Francisco (not there yet).

Personally, flying a flag of an enemy of the united States is more offensive to me than kneeling during the national anthem. That is why I think giving a pass to Confederate flag wavers is unpatriotic. Which other losing enemy of the United States hoists a flag to commemorate the bravery of that army in our borders? It's embarrassing and I do believe it is a double standard.

It is absurd to say white people ended slavery. There wasn't a vote where 80% of white people thought slavery was bad and ended it. It cost a lot of lives and whole areas of the south had to be destroyed. Let's be real. I'm from the south and I know people who call the civil war the "war of northern agression". If you believe Lincoln was a great President, you should view these people as UnAmerican because they truly do not believe in equality.

On the affirmative action tip, I don't believe in quotas. I do know that more and more evidence is accumulating that the baby boomer generation of Ben Carson was a time when AA was used and where black people made real progress into the middle and upper classes. As these programs have declined and mostly been eliminated, these inroads look worse for the boomers children.

Cavatt said:

It is absurd to say white people ended slavery.

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I don't think it's absurd to say that so much as it's absurd to use it as an implication that racism is over because of it, or that all white people are obviously on the same side and supportive of blacks simply because slavery was abolished some hundred and fifty years ago. Both of those statements are demonstrably false.

Cavatt said:

Yeah of course I was talking about how people fly the Confederate flag. Sorry guys I was driving from San Diego to San Francisco (not there yet).

Personally, flying a flag of an enemy of the united States is more offensive to me than kneeling during the national anthem. That is why I think giving a pass to Confederate flag wavers is unpatriotic. Which other losing enemy of the United States hoists a flag to commemorate the bravery of that army in our borders? It's embarrassing and I do believe it is a double standard.

It is absurd to say white people ended slavery. There wasn't a vote where 80% of white people thought slavery was bad and ended it. It cost a lot of lives and whole areas of the south had to be destroyed. Let's be real. I'm from the south and I know people who call the civil war the "war of northern agression". If you believe Lincoln was a great President, you should view these people as UnAmerican because they truly do not believe in equality.

On the affirmative action tip, I don't believe in quotas. I do know that more and more evidence is accumulating that the baby boomer generation of Ben Carson was a time when AA was used and where black people made real progress into the middle and upper classes. As these programs have declined and mostly been eliminated, these inroads look worse for the boomers children.

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Boomers are the real enemy. Got theirs. Cheap education. Plentiful jobs. Grew up and shipped jobs out and made college costs ruinous. Destroyed the country.

Such cock suckers.

King Stannis said:

Boomers are the real enemy. Got theirs. Cheap education. Plentiful jobs. Grew up and shipped jobs out and made college costs ruinous. Destroyed the country.

Such cock suckers.

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And then proceeded to blame it all on everyone else.

Jack Brickman said:

And then proceeded to blame it all on everyone else.

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Snowflakes (or the kids they babied out of guilt for all those divorces)!

Jack Brickman said:

Rating all my posts as funny is going to backfire spectacularly when @Cavatt confirms that I was right. I hope you realize that.

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I rarely quote myself here, but...

Cavatt said:

Yeah of course I was talking about how people fly the Confederate flag. Sorry guys I was driving from San Diego to San Francisco (not there yet).

Personally, flying a flag of an enemy of the united States is more offensive to me than kneeling during the national anthem. That is why I think giving a pass to Confederate flag wavers is unpatriotic. Which other losing enemy of the United States hoists a flag to commemorate the bravery of that army in our borders? It's embarrassing and I do believe it is a double standard.

It is absurd to say white people ended slavery. There wasn't a vote where 80% of white people thought slavery was bad and ended it. It cost a lot of lives and whole areas of the south had to be destroyed. Let's be real. I'm from the south and I know people who call the civil war the "war of northern agression". If you believe Lincoln was a great President, you should view these people as UnAmerican because they truly do not believe in equality.

On the affirmative action tip, I don't believe in quotas. I do know that more and more evidence is accumulating that the baby boomer generation of Ben Carson was a time when AA was used and where black people made real progress into the middle and upper classes. As these programs have declined and mostly been eliminated, these inroads look worse for the boomers children.

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It is absurd to say white people started slavery.

The confederate flag itself stood as a reminder and memorial for those who fought in the civil war and it use was then abused in the sixties as a political tool for segregation.

The United states failed in introducing a replacement economy to go along with the abolitionist movement and they failed in reconstruction after the war.

calling people traitors and unpatriotic for remembering their heritage certainly isn't productive nor true.

Tornicade said:

It is absurd to say white people started slavery.

The confederate flag itself stood as a reminder and memorial for those who fought in the civil war and it use was then abused in the sixties as a political tool for segregation.

The United states failed in introducing a replacement economy to go along with the abolitionist movement and they failed in reconstruction after the war.

calling people traitors and unpatriotic for remembering their heritage certainly isn't productive nor true.

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We are outside living memory save a couple people.

And you know damn well that the flag being waved is not the Confederate flag, but the flag of the ANV unfurled by racist shits in the 1950s in their neo-Lost Cause nonsense. They can't even get their facts straight.

Tornicade said:

It is absurd to say white people started slavery.

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Don't know about absurd, especially within the confines of slavery in America. More like incomplete. The injustice begins with treating people like property, which is how slavery in any community is conceived.

Tornicade said:

It is absurd to say white people started slavery.

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Soda said:

Don't know about absurd, especially within the confines of slavery in America. More like incomplete. The injustice begins with treating people like property, which is how slavery in any community is conceived.

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I see "white people started slavery (in the U.S.)" as akin to saying "black people commit crimes." Technically, both statements are true. The people who started slavery in the U.S. were white. And there are black people who commit crimes.

But both statements share the same flaw in that they imply some sort of racial guilt/responsibility for the actions of others. Or something "inherent" in a race that makes them predisposed to negative actions. And that's simply absurd.

Even if there was such a thing as "inherited guilt" that could be passed through generations, there are a great many white people in this country whose ancestors didn't even arrive in this country until after slavery was ended. Others had ancestors who were abolitionists, and fought slavery as hard as they could. What guilt/responsibility should they bear?

And on the flip side, there are black people who immigrated to this country post-Civil War as well, and never were slaves. In fact, some of them may have had ancestors who actively participated in the slave trade, and profited from the sale of slaves who ended up as slaves here in the U.S.. How do the actions of their ancestors factor into guilt/responsibility for slavery?

Slavery was a consummate evil. But the people who perpetrated it in this country, and who rightfully bore responsibility for it, are all long dead.

Soda said:

Don't know about absurd, especially within the confines of slavery in America. More like incomplete. The injustice begins with treating people like property, which is how slavery in any community is conceived.

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It certainly not absurd if you think life dates back to the 1600's

Tornicade said:

It is absurd to say white people started slavery.

The confederate flag itself stood as a reminder and memorial for those who fought in the civil war and it use was then abused in the sixties as a political tool for segregation.

The United states failed in introducing a replacement economy to go along with the abolitionist movement and they failed in reconstruction after the war.

calling people traitors and unpatriotic for remembering their heritage certainly isn't productive nor true.

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What is the "heritage of the south"? Can I tell you what I think?

The heritage of the south is an economic system where people believed that hard work and getting your hands dirty is for poor people and slaves only. This is UnAmerican. This is the opposite of the American work ethic and self determination. They believed in generational wealth and superiority a lot like England and royalty. Totally UnAmerican.

Dave said he believes in the bill of rights which is probably the most important cornerstone of democracy. Of course none of those rights were afforded to slaves and even after the war black people enjoyed basically none of them for quite some time. Totally UnAmerican

Yes Confederates are traitors. They fired on a military base. That is an act of treason by itself. Pretty unambiguous.

Notice Japanese and Germans do not glorify their horrible stances in the name of heritage. They were rightfully shamed, but some Confederates have never learned humility in the face of their "consulate evil" as qtip put it.

It's disgusting and an affront to the true flag to fly the enemy flag in this country.

The Human Q-Tip said:

I see "white people started slavery (in the U.S.)" as akin to saying "black people commit crimes." Technically, both statements are true. The people who started slavery in the U.S. were white. And there are black people who commit crimes.

But both statements share the same flaw in that they imply some sort of racial guilt/responsibility for the actions of others. Or something "inherent" in a race that makes them predisposed to negative actions. And that's simply absurd.

Even if there was such a thing as "inherited guilt" that could be passed through generations, there are a great many white people in this country whose ancestors didn't even arrive in this country until after slavery was ended. Others had ancestors who were abolitionists, and fought slavery as hard as they could. What guilt/responsibility should they bear?

And on the flip side, there are black people who immigrated to this country post-Civil War as well, and never were slaves. In fact, some of them may have had ancestors who actively participated in the slave trade, and profited from the sale of slaves who ended up as slaves here in the U.S.. How do the actions of their ancestors factor into guilt/responsibility for slavery?

Slavery was a consummate evil. But the people who perpetrated it in this country, and who rightfully bore responsibility for it, are all long dead.

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There shouldn't be any guilt provided we can agree the south were traitors, a wrong was committed, and we try to do right from now on. Alas people are holding onto heritage.

Do you think Germans should fly the swastika in the name of heritage? It is a part of their history, and a symbol of German power is it not?

Saying Confederates aren't traitors is too much for me.

Cavatt said:

There shouldn't be any guilt provided we can agree the south were traitors, a wrong was committed, and we try to do right from now on. Alas people are holding onto heritage.

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You're not going to get agreement on "treason", nor do I necessarily think you should. Slavery was inarguably wrong. I've argued with a lot of southerners about this, and while none of them have defended slavery (and I think they are sincere in that opinion), they still believe the North was not justified in keeping them in the union by force. I personally disagree with that -- I think slavery was such an evil that war would have been morally justified even if the South had been a completely separate country. I don't believe sovereignty protects slavery.

Their response to that is that the war wasn't sold as an attempt to free the slaves -- which is generally accurate. It was sold as "preserving the union" and some folks don't believe that was morally or legally justified. I don't agree with that, but I don't think it is such an unreasonable position that those who seceded were "traitors". The conception of the union was different back then, and many had torn loyalties between their state and the country.

Do you think Germans should fly the swastika in the name of heritage? It is a part of their history, and a symbol of German power is it not? Saying Confederates aren't traitors is too much for me.

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I don't agree with the flying of the confederate flag. I will say that I don't believe that everyone who flies it is intending to make a statement about slavery. I think for the majority, it represents an anti-Washington, "damned Yankees" sentiment, which is not inherently immoral. But I do think that flying it even for those subjective reasons is insensitive.

I also don't see it as morally equivalent to the Nazi flag. The confederate flag, at least in part, stood/stands for self-determination and freedom from central government domination. Those are laudatory things in my opinion, but they just come along with too much baggage for me.

There's really nothing the Nazi flag stands for other than racial superiority, unjustified military aggression, and genocide.

ETA: The reason I'm making this argument at all is because I think what you're asking is so extreme that it almost guarantees continued division. If we all agree that slavery was morally wrong, then much of the rest of the argument boils down to historical inconsequence. The reasons individuals fought in that war varied significantly. You've got guys whose ancestors fought in the war for the South whose families didn't own a single slave. They just didn't like being told what to do by Yankees. Demanding that "you either admit that your great, great grandfather was a traitor, or I will condemn you" seems needlessly argumentative to me.

@David.

Are you a racist?

Do you believe whites are superior to other races? Do you believe people of certain races are inferior simply by virtue of being that race?