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Racial Tension in the U.S.

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Where should the thread go from here?

  • Racial Tension in the U.S.

    Votes: 16 51.6%
  • Extremist Views on the U.S.

    Votes: 2 6.5%
  • Mending Years of Racial Stereotypes.

    Votes: 2 6.5%
  • Protest Culture.

    Votes: 1 3.2%
  • Racist Idiots in the News.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 10 32.3%

  • Total voters
    31
I don't agree with the flying of the confederate flag. I will say that I don't believe that everyone who flies it is intending to make a statement about slavery.

That may be true, but anyone who flies a flag like that should be aware of what the flag stands for to the vast majority of the population, and that is support of slavery. I'm not saying people don't have a right to fly it (freedom of expression and what not), but if they do, they should be prepared to be perceived as racist.
 
What is the "heritage of the south"? Can I tell you what I think?

The heritage of the south is an economic system where people believed that hard work and getting your hands dirty is for poor people and slaves only. This is UnAmerican. This is the opposite of the American work ethic and self determination. They believed in generational wealth and superiority a lot like England and royalty. Totally UnAmerican.

Dave said he believes in the bill of rights which is probably the most important cornerstone of democracy. Of course none of those rights were afforded to slaves and even after the war black people enjoyed basically none of them for quite some time. Totally UnAmerican

Yes Confederates are traitors. They fired on a military base. That is an act of treason by itself. Pretty unambiguous.

Notice Japanese and Germans do not glorify their horrible stances in the name of heritage. They were rightfully shamed, but some Confederates have never learned humility in the face of their "consulate evil" as qtip put it.

It's disgusting and an affront to the true flag to fly the enemy flag in this country.
I don't agree with everything in this post, but I think most of it is right on the money... hence the "Like".
 
@David.

Are you a racist?

Do you believe whites are superior to other races? Do you believe people of certain races are inferior simply by virtue of being that race?

I've noticed he's been remarkably silent in this topic since Cavatt returned late last night. :chuckle:
 
What is the "heritage of the south"? Can I tell you what I think?

The heritage of the south is an economic system where people believed that hard work and getting your hands dirty is for poor people and slaves only. This is UnAmerican.

That may be what the heritage of the sourth means to you. But consider that a lot of the southerners who are the most proud of their region are lower/working class types. They take pride in the fact that they work hard and get their hands dirty. They actually mock those who don't do that. They see themselves as hard-working, self-sufficient, and independent. I think you're making the mistake of ascribing to todays working-class southerners the attitudes of 19th century plantation owners, who did look down on both poor/working class, and slaves. That's transposing not only a century and a half, but jumping social classes as well.

Saying that the "heritage of the south" is distain for those who work hard and get their hands dirty is fundamentally misperceiving a great deal of southern culture. That's actually how they see us Yankees.

This is the opposite of the American work ethic and self determination. They believed in generational wealth and superiority a lot like England and royalty....Dave said he believes in the bill of rights which is probably the most important cornerstone of democracy.

The southerners who you are describing would argue -- with some justification -- that self-determination is the most important cornerstone of democracy. And that's the stone on which the whole argument gets complicated, because absent slavery, the principle of self-determination (and reread the Declaration to get the point) would argue that the South had the moral right to secede from the North, in the exact same way the colonies had the moral right to secede from Great Britain. That's how they see the argument.

Obviously, the retort is "but what about self-determination for the slaves", and again, I've been down that road with them. And they'll argue that the Yankees didn't even want to free the slaves, much less give them the actual vote (self-determination), when the war began, so that's not what the War was about. They see that as after-the-fact justification/moralizing from the North to cover up for what they consider to be imperialism. Again, I think they're wrong, but it's not a ridiculous argument. The historical record is jumbled enough that there is some support for that argument -- it all depends on which contemporaneous sources you cite.
 
@David.

Are you a racist?

Do you believe whites are superior to other races? Do you believe people of certain races are inferior simply by virtue of being that race?
I think asians are the best. You know that, Snarly knows that, everyone knows that.
 
That may be true, but anyone who flies a flag like that should be aware of what the flag stands for to the vast majority of the population, and that is support of slavery. I'm not saying people don't have a right to fly it (freedom of expression and what not), but if they do, they should be prepared to be perceived as racist.

I agree, and that's what I've told them. If I was black, I'd say "my ancestors were slaves under that flag, so it's not a good "heritage" as far as I'm concerned." Then they'll say "your ancestors were slaves under the Stars and Stripes as well", then I'd say "If it was an American flag with only 33 stars (pre-1961), I'd agree...."

Like I said, been down the road with those guys.....

ETA: Just realized the irony of that last sentence given my avatar....

@King Stannis
 
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It's sad that you've been proven wrong at this point and you're still doubling down.

Take the loss, man. You're only making yourself look dumber here.

What would democrat Lincoln do?

@^sorry for this racist statement. Defining idioms is a hate fact

The canadian illegal immigration epidemic brought this on
 
The "treason" argument as applied to the Confederacy doesn't really move the needle for me. First off I'm not so sure that attempting to leave the Union constitutes treason as opposed to, say, overthrowing the Federal government in Washington via a coup. One could argue that the bombardment of Fort Sumter wasn't an act of treason but an act of war on the part of one belligerent toward another (as was Lincoln's blockade of Southern ports, for that matter.)

Second, I'm just a little bit skeptical that the "treason" charge is anything more than a handy epithet and that if people have a problem with the Confederacy it has a lot more to with the Confederate cause than with the Confederacy committing treason against the Federal government. I doubt many people have a problem with treason in the abstract. Count von Stauffenberg and the other plotters against Hitler in 1944 were traitors too; so what?

I don't have very much sympathy with the Confederate cause. I believe the preservation of slavery was the prime reason for secession and that the Confederate fealty to "state's rights" and "small government" was a sham when you consider how eager the antebellum South was to create a slave empire using the power of the Federal government as its weapon (the Mexican War being the best example.) Secession was needless, short-sighted and brought about the most destructive war, by far, in American history.

At the same time, though, the vast majority of white Southerners were not and had never been slave owners. Those men weren't fighting for slavery; they were fighting to defend their homes and farms against what they saw as invaders. I have a very high regard for the bravery and ingenuity of the average Southern fighting man regardless of the justice of his cause, and if his ancestors fly the Battle Flag to honor him and his fight for home and hearth I have no reason to cast aspersions on their motives.
 
@David.

Are you a racist?

Do you believe whites are superior to other races? Do you believe people of certain races are inferior simply by virtue of being that race?

Re-quoting for real answer by @David. Answers to the "are some races inferior to others" questions always are interesting, especially if they answer honestly.
 
You're not going to get agreement on "treason", nor do I necessarily think you should. Slavery was inarguably wrong. I've argued with a lot of southerners about this, and while none of them have defended slavery (and I think they are sincere in that opinion), they still believe the North was not justified in keeping them in the union by force. I personally disagree with that -- I think slavery was such an evil that war would have been morally justified even if the South had been a completely separate country. I don't believe sovereignty protects slavery.

Their response to that is that the war wasn't sold as an attempt to free the slaves -- which is generally accurate. It was sold as "preserving the union" and some folks don't believe that was morally or legally justified. I don't agree with that, but I don't think it is such an unreasonable position that those who seceded were "traitors". The conception of the union was different back then, and many had torn loyalties between their state and the country.




I don't agree with the flying of the confederate flag. I will say that I don't believe that everyone who flies it is intending to make a statement about slavery. I think for the majority, it represents an anti-Washington, "damned Yankees" sentiment, which is not inherently immoral. But I do think that flying it even for those subjective reasons is insensitive.

I also don't see it as morally equivalent to the Nazi flag. The confederate flag, at least in part, stood/stands for self-determination and freedom from central government domination. Those are laudatory things in my opinion, but they just come along with too much baggage for me.

There's really nothing the Nazi flag stands for other than racial superiority, unjustified military aggression, and genocide.

ETA: The reason I'm making this argument at all is because I think what you're asking is so extreme that it almost guarantees continued division. If we all agree that slavery was morally wrong, then much of the rest of the argument boils down to historical inconsequence. The reasons individuals fought in that war varied significantly. You've got guys whose ancestors fought in the war for the South whose families didn't own a single slave. They just didn't like being told what to do by Yankees. Demanding that "you either admit that your great, great grandfather was a traitor, or I will condemn you" seems needlessly argumentative to me.

See I would argue it is exactly like the Nazi flag. If a German told you it was about self determination and a strong economy, which are both true, you would call bullshit.

Germany was under rules to pay back countries is destroyed in WWI and this Nazism was in part about gaining Independence from the "tyranny" of the European community that wanted them to make up for their errors.

So do they get to pick and choose what they feel are the "good" parts of nazism and make that what the flag represents to them? Absolutely not. Slavery was the "states rights" there was an issue with and that will forever be identified with the Confederacy and it is evil as you say.

If you are really for states rights, surely you realize that the most damaging thing that happened to states rights was a futile stance to support slavery. The power the federal government obtained from that war against a very evil thing has never been rolled back. If they had not taken a stance on this evil issue, you would be happier today I would guess.

You can't pick and choose the good thing a flag of an enemy represents when the central them is something that should be vilified. Anything else is not a credit to nuance, but a refutation of it.
 
Re-quoting for real answer by @David. Answers to the "are some races inferior to others" questions always are interesting, especially if they answer honestly.
Race doesnt mean anyone is better than anyone.
 

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