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Kevin Love - Miami Ground Machine

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Is Kevin Love a Hero for Saving a Dog?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 48.3%
  • Too Right!

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • Hotter than Jimmy G

    Votes: 15 25.9%
  • Jim Chones

    Votes: 13 22.4%

  • Total voters
    58
...Or, Love accumulates his best regular season stats since joining the Cavs. He isn't a third option anymore. He got into the All Star game twice with the Cavs as an efficient third option, now he gets an offense tailored to his skills. I doubt he goes under for another elective surgery if he wants to raise his own trade value.

That's why they play the games and don't vote in July.

...but the body of work Love has put in is right with Middleton and Horford. The younger players on the list have to actually make their jump, not theoretically make the jump.
 
I'm not so sure that necessarily follows. We are a rebuilding team that has been willing to take on bad contracts for draft picks. If he was a "bad" contract that other teams didn't want, we certainly wouldn't be willing to pay anything to get rid of him. That's the opposite of what we're doing strategically.

I think it's a case of him having true value to only a limited set of teams. He has true value to us because we have nobody else even close to being an All-Star, so he gives us a legitimate offensive threat that we would not otherwise have, plus some positive veteran stability and character. He'll also have value to playoff teams that lack shooting at the 4. But that's a comparatively small number. For a trade to work, Love has to me more valuable to one of those teams than he is to us, and that team must have tradeable assets worth more to that Cavs than Love's value as a player.
Good take & summary of the situation.
 
Nobody asked or forced you to write that thesis. You selected All Star games as the criteria, which usually rewards players who are high scoring and high usage rather than players who compliment a high usage player. If you think back to the 2004 Olympics, the U.S. squad sent 12 traditional "All Star" type players and they picked up an embarrassing bronze. At that point, the value of players who provide more than that narrow measurement of basketball talent became higher priority.

Yet, Kevin Love made five All Star games being a player who would compliment team play over high usage. So you and Magic Johnson can go ahead and overvalue players who provide little more than ball dominance. I just doubt it will lead to winning basketball.

Turn this all into a personal attack if you must, but frankly you wrote a terrible argument which I had little difficulty blowing up in a sentence ten words in length. He is a five time All Star because your criteria inaccurate, faulty, and a poor reflection of the NBA. I cannot possibly think of a more obvious flagship to confirmation bias than to claim a guy who went to the All Star game 18 months ago - his last healthy season - isn't an All Star.

My eyes are rolling hard at the claim that you blew up my post by pointing out that Love was on the all-star team -- something that I and everyone else am perfectly aware of -- simply because I said that he is "a good player, but he's not really an all-star level player". I can't think of a more obvious flagship to evading the meaning of a post than being super literal minded about a single phrase and then going NYAH NYAH NYAH about it. It is hardly a violation of the laws of nature for someone who does not provide all-star level value to sometimes make the all-star team.

You move to a more interesting argument about being a ball-dominant player. You seem to be claiming that Love is a complementary team player and not a high usage/ball dominant player and therefore it is more difficult for him to make the all-star team. So perhaps his all-star appearances should count for more? If I have your claim right, it would be interesting, but sinks right away because Love actually is a very ball-dominant player for his (frontcourt) position - especially when he's not playing with Lebron James. Love's usage rating in his best years in Minnesota was about 29%, and his usage rating last year was 27.4% -- about as ball dominant as Jordan Clarkson. Consider two other players you compared to Love -- Draymond Green and Al Horford. Green's career usage rating is 16.3% and was 13.1% last year. Horford has a 19% career usage rating and it was 18.4% last year. Those are top level complementary players. If Love had his same offensive skills but otherwise was more like Horford and Green -- a clear plus defender who did not need the ball in his hands as much to produce offensively -- he would be significantly more valuable as a player on a high-level contender.
 
My eyes are rolling hard at the claim that you blew up my post by pointing out that Love was on the all-star team -- something that I and everyone else am perfectly aware of -- simply because I said that he is "a good player, but he's not really an all-star level player". I can't think of a more obvious flagship to evading the meaning of a post than being super literal minded about a single phrase and then going NYAH NYAH NYAH about it. It is hardly a violation of the laws of nature for someone who does not provide all-star level value to sometimes make the all-star team.

Still trying to pick a bar fight with the town sheriff? How bizarre. You decided to write a 200 word personal attack because I argued what you literally said rather than "the spirit of your post" and now some five hours later you want to continue some kind of personal vandetta. It's a bad stance to take. I have had tremendous restraint by merely pointing out the fact you literally made a terrible argument. Trust me, after you decided to take it personally I had other courses of action. I'll just leave it at this: Kevin Love has a very very good chance to remain an All Star, just as he has the majority of his career peak in a bad conference, and it's high time you ended this and moved on.


You move to a more interesting argument about being a ball-dominant player. You seem to be claiming that Love is a complementary team player and not a high usage/ball dominant player and therefore it is more difficult for him to make the all-star team. So perhaps his all-star appearances should count for more? If I have your claim right, it would be interesting, but sinks right away because Love actually is a very ball-dominant player for his (frontcourt) position - especially when he's not playing with Lebron James. Love's usage rating in his best years in Minnesota was about 29%, and his usage rating last year was 27.4% -- about as ball dominant as Jordan Clarkson. Consider two other players you compared to Love -- Draymond Green and Al Horford. Green's career usage rating is 16.3% and was 13.1% last year. Horford has a 19% career usage rating and it was 18.4% last year. Those are top level complementary players. If Love had his same offensive skills but otherwise was more like Horford and Green -- a clear plus defender who did not need the ball in his hands as much to produce offensively -- he would be significantly more valuable as a player on a high-level contender.

Here your tone is a little more conversational, which I appreciate. Yes, in Minnesota Kevin Love was highly ball dominant because he was the focal point of Adelman's offense with a bad supporting cast. He was among the leaders in the league in touches from the elbow, which he didn't do in Cleveland until a few stretches last season. That was the Wolves best chance to win, and they almost made the playoffs in a tough Western Conference two years in a row.

You bring up Draymond, who fit the Golden State offense perfectly when they had four of the best scorers in the NBA surrounding him. He, Iguodala, and Livingston spent the past five years as pseudo point guards from the front court, looking to find Durant, Klay and Curry coming off picks away from the ball. As good as Draymond is defensively, he wouldn't be the same positive on the floor offensively if he didn't have so much firepower around him. His scoring has regressed the past two years when the big three are out. I'm very interested to see what he does this season.

Horford plays the game a lot like Love played when he was with LeBron and Irving, but the national writers like Zack Lowe always argued that it was a bit of a waste to have a player of Love's ability merely being Horford on offense. Horford defensively is better as a rim defender. I wouldn't suggest otherwise, Horford is always in the conversation for All Star games himself. But Love could facilitate so well out of the elbow and draw free throws/shoot a high percentage on the block... and Coach Lue never really embraced plays that used his skillset.

So the meat of my argument is that Love made All Star games playing a comparative lower usage rate, and that is because he was incredibly efficient in his role. Part two is that I think you will see Coach Beilein significantly raise Love's usage rate this season, especially with such young and inexperienced guards. That increase in usage rate will likely inflate his offensive personal statistics as well as better prepare Sexton and Garland to be efficient playmakers in the future. I'm excited to see what a real coach can do with Kevin Love.
 
Let's leave John Wall and Kevin Durant out because they aren't playing this year and who knows what they will look like after an Achilles tear.

Definites: Greek Freak, Joel Embiid, Bradley Beal, Kyrie Irving, Jimmy Butler, Kemba Walker, Tobias Harris, Blake Griffin, Victor Oladipo.

I'm having a hard time convincing myself Kevin Love doesn't deserve the ten spot. Ben Simmons still can't hit a three. Jayson Tatum has upside, but I'm talking about the top ten right now. Khris Middleton I guess?
Yes, I think you can argue that Kevin is anywhere from 8-12.

That’s “changing the balance of the league” if he’s dealt to another team, especially if it’s in the East.

He’s a valuable player who is likely to be an NBA All-Star for the 6th time this season.

Next offseason, the cap jumps to around $117 million. He’s being paid at about 25% of that.

Nothing immovable about that deal other than it just requires finding the right team based on need and assets.
 
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It’ll be interesting to see how long Love can play at an All-Star level, and how long it takes Garland to reach All-Star level.
 
Come on, we were all here during Kevin's entire run. He's not a scrub, he's a good player, but he's not really an all-star level player either. He has his moments, but he's a limited player in the modern NBA. It's not just his regular season injuries but his inconsistent playoff performances. Over his entire Cleveland playoff career he was a 15/10 guy on a 49.4% effective shooting percentage (55% true shooting) -- not bad but not great. Add that to his defensive limitations and his inability to create his own shot and take over in clutch situations, and he's not a star. $30 million/per for the next four years is the kind of salary you want to pay to a star. Yes, he could make an on court difference to the right contender, but if you are a contender that also means you have to manage your salary cap carefully.
Ya LeBron has that effect on team mates but can't argue with the results.
 
Ya LeBron has that effect on team mates but can't argue with the results.

I'd save the "ya" opener for that post. Here are Kevin Love's actual stats:


His offense had been consistently misrepresented. The strange thing is I'm not a huge Love fan or anything. I think he goes through the motions too often on defense.
 
I kind of want to trade Love to the Blazers.

I always pick a team to root for besides the cavs when the cavs are in rebuild mode. I love Dame and the way he plays and find the Blazers fun to watch as i feel the play with allot of heart. I think he is a great fit next to whiteside, who is over rated imo.

Love quietly asked to be traded if possible to a contender. WIth Love, they are a contender.

I will always be a Love fan, helped us get a championship. Very under rated in helping get that, a third option making the all star team is very difficult to do, and of the 3 plays to end game 7, Loves defense on Steph was my favorite. Feel like it shows how over rated Steph was that in a big, big moment, a PF could stick to you and defend you.

I would be fine if he stays a season or two more, but with Love quietly wanting to compete again, and knowing he wont be in his prime anymore when the Cavs are good again....why not the Blazers? I know may of us would root for Portland if traded there and wouldn't be mad if he was.
 
What was our record with and without him last season?
 
What was our record with and without him last season?

He played 22 games with us.

7 wins. 15 losses. ~31.8%

Only played the first four games (all losses) at the beginning of the season (and didn't suit up again until February 8th).

He sat for 60 games.

12 wins. 48 losses. ~20%

I recommend using this link for Kevin's stats.

Lots of stats to work with. He played 598 minutes with us out of 3955 total possible minutes (or 15% of the entire season). Despite playing so little, our offense was 5.5 points better (per 100 possessions) while he's on the court, while 1.2 points better on defense. We shot better, rebounded better, passed better, and took care of the ball better. It wasn't perfect, but he certainly had a positive effect on the game.
 
He played 22 games with us.

7 wins. 15 losses. ~31.8%

Only played the first four games (all losses) at the beginning of the season (and didn't suit up again until February 8th).

He sat for 60 games.

12 wins. 48 losses. ~20%

I recommend using this link for Kevin's stats.

Lots of stats to work with. He played 598 minutes with us out of 3955 total possible minutes (or 15% of the entire season). Despite playing so little, our offense was 5.5 points better (per 100 possessions) while he's on the court, while 1.2 points better on defense. We shot better, rebounded better, passed better, and took care of the ball better. It wasn't perfect, but he certainly had a positive effect on the game.

He was injured for those first four games, and looked nothing like himself. Completely different when he played those last 18 games.
 
In addition to the nine you listed, I would put Khris Middleton above Love, along with Nikola Vucevic, Ben Simmons (yes he can't shoot but he is elite at everything else), Al Horford (defense), Pascal Siakam, Kyle Lowry. Those to me are pretty much definites, so you have 15 guys better than Love in the East.

Then there is a next group where it's arguable -- Love is better than some, worse than others, it depends on what you value and how well they play this year. Including Jayson Tatum, Myles Turner, Marc Gasol, Malcolm Brogdon, Josh Richardson, and I even think Otto Porter is going to have a breakout year this year. Also don't sleep on Goran Dragic if he gets healthy. Will be interesting to see if Trae Young takes a leap.

So I think of Love as maybe the 18th to 20th best player in the East. Better than Serge Ibaka but not by much (when you count defense).
The 6 names you listed prior to saying "the next group is arguable" are also very arguable.
 
The 6 names you listed prior to saying "the next group is arguable" are also very arguable.

I agree. Lowry and Horford are both 3 years older than Love, and are more likely to decline this year than is Love, and I don't see either as so clearly better than Love that we can predict who will be better this upcoming season.

I think Middleton is weirdly overrated in general.

Simmons is younger and better overall, but is game is so weird for a PG that it's tough to figure out how truly valuable he is. Vuc is one guy I do think is better, but it's not clear cut.

Siakam is the one guy I'd want over Love in a heartbeat, and that based on his history of rapid improvement, and projected improvement in the future..
 
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Love's value on these boards is pretty inflated by comparison to opinions around the league.
He is injury prone, over paid and has a lot to prove before the Cavs can expect to get any real value moving him , I think he stays in a Cavs jersey until he retires, unless he turns back the clock this season and draws some legitimate offers
 

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