• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

2020-21 Offseason Discussion

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
You're kinda helping me make my point here....

Honestly, what do think the Indians front office thinks of Johnson at CF when four guys with a respective .348, .603, .534 and .628 OPS play over him this year? Four guys got a shot at CF this year and he was not one of them.

The job is wide open and nobody is blocking him and he still didn't get a sniff. Why is that? I mean, people on here are now telling me he's a plus-plus defender in CF and you're saying he'd provide more than a .600 OPS. Like, is the Indians front office that incompetent then?

Hell, the Indians front office even went outside the organization to add another LHH OFer in the Clevinger trade instead of giving him another shot at a corner OF spot.

I like Johnson as a prospect. I really do. I like him as a platoon corner OF. Seeing what the A's and Rays have done with versatile platoon players of late, there's nothing wrong with that projection. But as of right now, I just think this is a classic case of fans falling in love with a prospect that just isn't as highly thought of by his organization.

Maybe when it comes to offensive evaluation/developing young hitters... Yes maybe they are a tad incompetent. Between the pathetic performance of our offense, the constant overpaying of over the hill vets and worst of all the number of productive young ex Indian farnhands now starting to scatter across the league.. is that not enough proof?

I mean if your argument is that the Indians must know what they are doing in terms of prospect development so they must be correct in not giving Johnson a chance...dont you think that argument stands on thin ice at this point just by looking at the product they have put out there?
 
Maybe when it comes to offensive evaluation/developing young hitters... Yes maybe they are a tad incompetent. Between the pathetic performance of our offense, the constant overpaying of over the hill vets and worst of all the number of productive young ex Indian farnhands now starting to scatter across the league.. is that not enough proof?

I mean if your argument is that the Indians must know what they are doing in terms of prospect development so they must be correct in not giving Johnson a chance...dont you think that argument stands on thin ice at this point just by looking at the product they have put out there?

Eh, I think you are taking this in the wrong direction to be honest. The Indians really haven't had a bad signing in awhile. Martin trade in hindsight is looking bad, but otherwise most of the moves they have made have been solid overall. So I am not sure where you are getting the overpaid vets thing since we havent really had them for awhile in a lot of ways.

Every single team has the same issue the Indians do with guys who leave and become better elsewhere so dont blame that on the developmental peeps. They drafted/acquired them because they felt they could be that way. Just sometimes the change of scenery helps someone develop in a sense.

The issue in my mind, is the fact they are doing too much straight potential and not enough high floor types in a sense. What i mean by this is look at the A ball/top 30 prospects list. Most of them would test high on athletic and other stuff like that. Defensively the Indians could easily produce more gold gloves in just about every position (outside of the depth at catcher). We have guys with a ton of potential. Though even in MLB the Show A potential players don't always pan out. We have done too much of the draft highest potential position player thats young lately. I think in 23 and beyond this roster will be loaded, but we never got the guys to replace Brantley, Kipnis etc like we needed too because we focused on getting those high potential young prospects, early in the draft.

We have tried to supplement those issues with trading the lower guys for the likes of Mercado and getting position for players like Bauer, who we couldn't keep any longer. We just did it a season or two late in my mind/we need to sign one or two more veterans into the roster as stopgaps. Hindsight is 20/20 and I think down the line they learned from this and will try to mix in a few more Owen Millers rather than keep drafting straight high potential, high bust candidates.
 
Eh, I think you are taking this in the wrong direction to be honest. The Indians really haven't had a bad signing in awhile. Martin trade in hindsight is looking bad, but otherwise most of the moves they have made have been solid overall. So I am not sure where you are getting the overpaid vets thing since we havent really had them for awhile in a lot of ways.

Every single team has the same issue the Indians do with guys who leave and become better elsewhere so dont blame that on the developmental peeps. They drafted/acquired them because they felt they could be that way. Just sometimes the change of scenery helps someone develop in a sense.

The issue in my mind, is the fact they are doing too much straight potential and not enough high floor types in a sense. What i mean by this is look at the A ball/top 30 prospects list. Most of them would test high on athletic and other stuff like that. Defensively the Indians could easily produce more gold gloves in just about every position (outside of the depth at catcher). We have guys with a ton of potential. Though even in MLB the Show A potential players don't always pan out. We have done too much of the draft highest potential position player thats young lately. I think in 23 and beyond this roster will be loaded, but we never got the guys to replace Brantley, Kipnis etc like we needed too because we focused on getting those high potential young prospects, early in the draft.

We have tried to supplement those issues with trading the lower guys for the likes of Mercado and getting position for players like Bauer, who we couldn't keep any longer. We just did it a season or two late in my mind/we need to sign one or two more veterans into the roster as stopgaps. Hindsight is 20/20 and I think down the line they learned from this and will try to mix in a few more Owen Millers rather than keep drafting straight high potential, high bust candidates.

I meant to say overplaying of over the hill vets like Domingo Santana, Carlos Gonzalez, Deshields, Mike Freeman, Hanley Ramirez, etc ... they rarely plan to just give young guys a chance until they work it so it's not surprising that they didn't give Johnson much of a shot.
 
I meant to say overplaying of over the hill vets like Domingo Santana, Carlos Gonzalez, Deshields, Mike Freeman, Hanley Ramirez, etc ... they rarely plan to just give young guys a chance until they work it so it's not surprising that they didn't give Johnson much of a shot.

Mike Freeman earned a spot out of spring training and he hit really well last season for us. DeShields hit to his career numbers (so why people are mad at him when he did what we knew he was going to. He was about the only person on this team that did). Domingo isn't an old player btw, turned 28 this season and was playing at an All Star level before the injury last season and they paid him less than nothing for this season. CarGo and Hanley came on veteran minimums so those signings made sense.

I dont fault the team for any of those decisions, but when stuff hasn't worked they switched who played. Who did they take at bats from? They wouldn't have been on the roster if we had ready young guys for the most part anyways
 
Couple of things off the cuff:
1. I don't think Naquin will be tendered an offer.
2. Naylor's defense in LF vastly improved with his conditioning so your numbers are probably skewed a bit.
3. I do not think Reyes will see much time in the OF, but I could be wrong.
4. If another LF/1B is acquired then Bauers and Bradley are f'd. They might be f'd anyway if Jones proves ready.
5. It's difficult to estimate what the roster will look like without knowing what the Lindor trade will net them.
6. I expect Chang to be handed SS duties to bridge the gap to Arias. They will not block him.
7. I expect Miller to win 2B duties. His profile is much like Hernandez's, he's just unproven at the highest level.
1. You could be right on Naquin but considering how desperate they are for offense from the corner outfield positions and the fact that he hit .288/.792 in 2019 before his injury there's no reason to think he can't repeat that with a healthy off-season and a normal spring training next year. His base salary this year was only $1.45 million and after hitting .218 this year I doubt he gets a big raise. If he can repeat his 2019 season next year he'll be a bargain.

2. I agree on Naylor's defense and I'm fine with his glove in left field.

3. The plan for 2020 was for Reyes to play a lot of right field. He lobbied for it and the Indians agreed to give him a shot. Only the pandemic prevented it. With a normal spring training and a crying need for corner outfield production I can see the Indians putting Reyes in right IF they can find a productive DH somewhere.

4. I think Bauers and Bradley are hanging on by their fingernails. They might give them a shot at first base if Santana doesn't come back. They have an investment in Bauers, having traded a good hitter in Yandy Diaz for him, so he might get one more look. As for Bradley, the Indians were near the bottom in home runs and ISO last year. They need some power, especially with Lindor and probably Santana leaving. So he could get a shot as well. Nolan Jones has not played above AA so I don't see him in the plans for next year, especially missing a minor league season this year.

5. Yep, a Lindor deal could change the whole equation just like getting Naylor and Reyes in trades changed the equation.

6. Maybe Chang or maybe we get a young shortstop back for Lindor.
 
I meant to say overplaying of over the hill vets like Domingo Santana, Carlos Gonzalez, Deshields, Mike Freeman, Hanley Ramirez, etc ... they rarely plan to just give young guys a chance until they work it so it's not surprising that they didn't give Johnson much of a shot.
The Indians have stated that they don't like promoting young players to the bigs if they're going to fail and have to be sent down. Their philosophy is to keep them in the minors until they are ready so when they come up they stick. Maybe they're high on Johnson (they've said they are) but didn't think he was ready. Also, with only 60 games this was not the year to be trying out prospects with each game being almost triple the importance of a normal season.

If they play 162 games next year but stick with the 8-team playoff setup, we could see more opportunities for young players to get major league playing time. It won't be as important to win the division and you could even finish third and make the playoffs. What will be more important is which team is playing best starting in game 163.
 
@Wham with the Right Hand

With the fact Jones has to be added to the and the fact he would have finished the second of this season at AAA, Jones actually by his progression should be close to the pros, so I am not against him making the team if he shows he has improved. They likely will platoon him anyways the first season.
 
Mike Freeman earned a spot out of spring training and he hit really well last season for us. DeShields hit to his career numbers (so why people are mad at him when he did what we knew he was going to. He was about the only person on this team that did). Domingo isn't an old player btw, turned 28 this season and was playing at an All Star level before the injury last season and they paid him less than nothing for this season. CarGo and Hanley came on veteran minimums so those signings made sense.

I dont fault the team for any of those decisions, but when stuff hasn't worked they switched who played. Who did they take at bats from? They wouldn't have been on the roster if we had ready young guys for the most part anyways

There have been more but I had forgotten them and didn't look them up until now. Leonys Martin. Rajai Davis in 2018. Brandon Guyer. Austin Jackson. While giving up on a Yandy Diaz or Gio Urshela or not protecting Anthony Santander. Playing Mike Freeman instead of seeing what Yu Chang has right now. Maybe converting Will Castro to the OF where he could be used right now. They do it over and over so don't tell me it's obvious Johnson isn't capable when it's not in their MO to just see what he has. Even if it was in left he should have been playing this year. Or Franmil wanted to play the OF. Could have put him out there and given Bobby Bradley some ABs.

You can sit around and look at each move individually and try to justify (eg. a career scrub like Freeman was hitting well in Spring Training) but the point is their philosophy of leaning towards these types instead of letting youth sink or swim is a contributing factor to their current situation.
 
Last edited:
The Indians have stated that they don't like promoting young players to the bigs if they're going to fail and have to be sent down. Their philosophy is to keep them in the minors until they are ready so when they come up they stick. Maybe they're high on Johnson (they've said they are) but didn't think he was ready. Also, with only 60 games this was not the year to be trying out prospects with each game being almost triple the importance of a normal season.

If they play 162 games next year but stick with the 8-team playoff setup, we could see more opportunities for young players to get major league playing time. It won't be as important to win the division and you could even finish third and make the playoffs. What will be more important is which team is playing best starting in game 163.

Yeah, that is becoming obvious. But what if they didn't let Jose Ramirez stink (at the plate) for almost 2 years? Didn't give him the consistent atbats that he received until he figured it out? Where would he be right now? There will always be a vet available with some moderate track record of success to give you hope. It's time for them to permenantly resist the urge to look that way and put their young guys in the fire for as long as possible.
 
To piggyback off of what @DerekG123 has alluded to in the previous two posts, the Indians have actually taken the opposite approach when it comes to pitching. They have allowed young arms like Plesac, Civale, McKenzie to continue their development in the big leagues and learn on the job, as opposed to signing stop-gap veterans to eat innings in the rotation. Obviously, it's worked wonders for them, while the same can not be said regarding position players overall.
 
There have been more but I had forgotten them and didn't look them up until now. Leonys Martin. Rajai Davis in 2018. Brandon Guyer. Austin Jackson. While giving up on a Yandy Diaz or Gio Urshela or not protecting Anthony Santander. Playing Mike Freeman instead of seeing what Yu Chang has right now. Maybe converting Will Castro to the OF where he could be used right now. They do it over and over so don't tell me it's obvious Johnson isn't capable when it's not in their MO to just see what he has. Even if it was in left he should have been playing this year.

You can sit around and look at each move individually and try to justify (eg. a career scrub like Freeman was hitting well in Spring Training) but the point is their philosophy of leaning towards these types instead of letting youth sink or swim is a contributing factor to their current situation.

We couldn't predict Martin would get so sick he almost died before we traded Castro who is producing better in the pros than he ever did at the minors at any level. We didn't have a CF at all when we got Martin, so the move made sense when we did it. When it comes to Santander, he was an injury prone minor leaguer who never played above A Ball. He missed most of the Rule 5 season with the Orioles cause of injuries. He wasn't ready for the pros when we lost him, so I cannot fault the Indians for that one.

Davis, Jackson, Guyer, all were very solid pickups that did what we needed them to do. Urshela was cut by another team after the Indians got him and that was the Blue Jays. Urshela just went around the right people to help him progress is all. If anything that was a development issue with the Indians.

In my opinion it isn't the fact we havent been giving young guys chances (at least normally) we need to do a better job developing in house position players. When we had Jackson, Davis, Guyer etc, we didn't have a young player to play in there place hence why they ended up on the team
 
To piggyback off of what @DerekG123 has alluded to in the previous two posts, the Indians have actually taken the opposite approach when it comes to pitching. They have allowed young arms like Plesac, Civale, McKenzie to continue their development in the big leagues and learn on the job, as opposed to signing stop-gap veterans to eat innings in the rotation. Obviously, it's worked wonders for them, while the same can not be said regarding position players overall.
They had no choice. Kluber got his arm broken by a line drive. Carrasco got leukemia. Clevinger pulled a muscle. They had to bring up Civale and Plesac.

They traded Clevinger to save money and also for not reporting that he also broke the rules in Chicago. I think they also wanted to move him before he got hurt again, and lo and behold he got hurt again.

I don't think having Civale, Plesac, and McKenzie finish off their development in the big leagues was the plan but circumstances dictated otherwise.

As for Yandy Diaz, they didn't "give up" on him, they traded him for a young player they really liked. Yandy was a third baseman and they had a pretty good one already.

They did give up on Urshela - after NINE years in the organization. At age 25 he hit .224/.551 in 165 at-bats which isn't going to cut it at third base, especially when we had Ramirez and Gio doesn't play another position.
 
They had no choice. Kluber got his arm broken by a line drive. Carrasco got leukemia. Clevinger pulled a muscle. They had to bring up Civale and Plesac.

They traded Clevinger to save money and also for not reporting that he also broke the rules in Chicago. I think they also wanted to move him before he got hurt again, and lo and behold he got hurt again.

I don't think having Civale, Plesac, and McKenzie finish off their development in the big leagues was the plan but circumstances dictated otherwise.

As for Yandy Diaz, they didn't "give up" on him, they traded him for a young player they really liked. Yandy was a third baseman and they had a pretty good one already.

They did give up on Urshela - after NINE years in the organization. At age 25 he hit .224/.551 in 165 at-bats which isn't going to cut it at third base, especially when we had Ramirez and Gio doesn't play another position.

Yes they traded Yandy... but they also didn't give him nearly enough of a chance when they had him. He posted a. 797 OPS in 109 abs. And trading him for a first baseman makes no sense when Yandy can play first himself.... as well as third. The pretty good third baseman we had could also play 2nd at the time and the pretty mediocre 2nd baseman we had at the time was clearly playing on borrowed time. And while Yonder Alonso was decent for that year... playing Yandy clearly would have been more beneficial long term. A team dedicated to developing youth gets him 300-400 ABs that year to see what he had instead of 500-600 ABs to both Alonso/Kipnis who had no future.

As for Santander never playing above A ball, that is also no excuse in the rule 5 draft. We have guys on our roster right now who were nowhere near ready for the big leaguers when added for that very reason...to avoid the rule 5 draft. Again, you make due with one less useless scrub with no future on the major league roster and protect him. That's your job to figure that out. Our team wasn't so deep where they couldn't have made that happen.
 
1. You could be right on Naquin but considering how desperate they are for offense from the corner outfield positions and the fact that he hit .288/.792 in 2019 before his injury there's no reason to think he can't repeat that with a healthy off-season and a normal spring training next year. His base salary this year was only $1.45 million and after hitting .218 this year I doubt he gets a big raise. If he can repeat his 2019 season next year he'll be a bargain.

2. I agree on Naylor's defense and I'm fine with his glove in left field.

3. The plan for 2020 was for Reyes to play a lot of right field. He lobbied for it and the Indians agreed to give him a shot. Only the pandemic prevented it. With a normal spring training and a crying need for corner outfield production I can see the Indians putting Reyes in right IF they can find a productive DH somewhere.

4. I think Bauers and Bradley are hanging on by their fingernails. They might give them a shot at first base if Santana doesn't come back. They have an investment in Bauers, having traded a good hitter in Yandy Diaz for him, so he might get one more look. As for Bradley, the Indians were near the bottom in home runs and ISO last year. They need some power, especially with Lindor and probably Santana leaving. So he could get a shot as well. Nolan Jones has not played above AA so I don't see him in the plans for next year, especially missing a minor league season this year.

5. Yep, a Lindor deal could change the whole equation just like getting Naylor and Reyes in trades changed the equation.

6. Maybe Chang or maybe we get a young shortstop back for Lindor.

That window for Naquin was nice, but it was 4 yrs ago. I like the kid and wish him the best, but I still don't believe he'll be an Indian in 2021. I hope that our RFer in 2021 is a bit more dynamic.

There are many factors that will decide the fates of Bauers and Bradley. There's an outside chance that one of them could make the roster, but not both. There just isn't enough room. Like I said, if another 1B or corner OFer are added then they're both f'd.

I expect the roster to look very different next season and the Lindor trade to heavily influence it.

I doubt the Lindor trade will bring back a young SS. There are already numerous young SS's in the system, and like I mentioned previously, I don't think they will block Arias. He's there future SS at this time. In the meantime they might be able to create some value with Chang. Of course, the opposite could also be true, but they have a couple of others that are close. Namely Miller and Freeman.

You think that Jones missing a minor league season stunted his development, but that might not be the case. He's been facing major league quality pitching that he likely would not have seen in Akron or even Columbus. I'd be curious to see what the "powers that be" have to say about Nolan's chances of making the major league roster next season are.
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-13: "Backup Bash Brothers"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:11: "Clipping Bucks."
Top