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2020-21 Offseason Discussion

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That window for Naquin was nice, but it was 4 yrs ago. I like the kid and wish him the best, but I still don't believe he'll be an Indian in 2021. I hope that our RFer in 2021 is a bit more dynamic.

There are many factors that will decide the fates of Bauers and Bradley. There's an outside chance that one of them could make the roster, but not both. There just isn't enough room. Like I said, if another 1B or corner OFer are added then they're both f'd.

I expect the roster to look very different next season and the Lindor trade to heavily influence it.

I doubt the Lindor trade will bring back a young SS. There are already numerous young SS's in the system, and like I mentioned previously, I don't think they will block Arias. He's there future SS at this time. In the meantime they might be able to create some value with Chang. Of course, the opposite could also be true, but they have a couple of others that are close. Namely Miller and Freeman.

You think that Jones missing a minor league season stunted his development, but that might not be the case. He's been facing major league quality pitching that he likely would not have seen in Akron or even Columbus. I'd be curious to see what the "powers that be" have to say about Nolan's chances of making the major league roster next season are.
We'll see what happens with Naquin but with a base salary of only $1.4 million last year and having a bad mini-season this year, plus factoring in his injury history, I don't see him getting a raise next year. Will they "gamble" something like $1.5 million on a guy that realistically could hit .288/.792 next year when they're desperate for offense in the outfield? I think that's not much of a risk and there's some decent upside.

If they add an outfielder and decide to move Naylor to first base, or if they switch Jones to first base and plan to bring him up from Columbus at some point in the seaosn, or if they get Santana back at a bargain price, then I agree Bradley and Bauers are not in the picture other than playing ball in Columbus.

This is all assuming there is a normal season next year which is questionable if reports that a vaccine won't be ready until next summer or fall are correct.

I don't know what they think about Chang. He's 25. The clock is ticking. It would be nice if he becomes the next Gio Urshela only for our team. Gio didn't hit in the bigs until age 27.

From the web site overtimeheroics.net:

Gio Urshela always had a great glove, but his weakness at the plate was his downfall. It was the reason why he could not stay on an MLB roster. However, Yankees, Triple-A hitting coach, Phil Plantier, helped Urshela fix his swing. Plantier emphasized how important using your legs are in your swing. Before Plantier, Urshela did not use his legs much resulting in him not being able to drive the ball. They also worked on his batting stance. Plantier’s coaching seemed to have immediate affect on Urshela as he batted .307 with 2 home runs and 12 RBIs and an .815 OPS in just 27 games. The Yankees were so impressed with his improvement they locked him up on a minor league deal.

OK, this makes me really fucking angry. NINE years we had Urshela. We signed him when he was 17 and gave up on him when he was 25. How many hitting coaches did he work with in the Indians organization at every level in those nine years? And not ONE of them could figure out something so simple as getting his legs more involved? This totally explains why ALL our young outfielders crapped out last year. We don't have ANY competent hitting coaches!!! We threw away a Gold Glove caliber third baseman because nobody could figure out how to help him hit. We gave away a 4.0 WAR player!

Imagine Gio at third and Hosey at second.

The guy that immediately fixed Gio's swing upon his arrival wasn't even their major league hitting coach. It was a minor league coach. The Indians have assembled an impressive group of pitching coaches. Now they need to find somebody who knows how to teach hitting. Maybe after trading or releasing half the team this off-season they'll have enough money to invest in some decent hitting coaches.

 
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"I wouldn’t be surprised if the Tribe trades Carlos Carrasco, who has two years worth $12 million annually left on his contract. The Indians need outfielders. They have young and cheap starting pitching."

No mention of how incredibly disrespectful of a move it would be by Pluto. This is worth mentioning because he's turned his Tribe columns into curated info dumps from ownership. Wouldn't it behoove Pluto, or the ownership figures whispering in his ear, to mention how bad the optics would look if a cancer survivor, Roberto Clemente award-winning player and a veteran who initiated two team-friendly contract extensions was dumped for salary purposes?
 
Mike Freeman earned a spot out of spring training and he hit really well last season for us. DeShields hit to his career numbers (so why people are mad at him when he did what we knew he was going to. He was about the only person on this team that did). Domingo isn't an old player btw, turned 28 this season and was playing at an All Star level before the injury last season and they paid him less than nothing for this season. CarGo and Hanley came on veteran minimums so those signings made sense.

I dont fault the team for any of those decisions, but when stuff hasn't worked they switched who played. Who did they take at bats from? They wouldn't have been on the roster if we had ready young guys for the most part anyways

Nobody is mad at DeShields for anything. The problem with DeShields, is that he doesn't move the needle on a team bereft of power. Well, that and I didn't think a RP and him were nearly enough for Kluber............and I still don't. I would have rather received Clase and a lower level guy or nothing at all.

Domingo was an experiment they had to try due to not having any corner OF bats. It failed, but who did they replace him with? Naquin, who hasn't performed like a corner OFer should since the first half of 2016. I don't know if the issue is philosophical, physical, or both, but there is certainly an "issue". On the brighter side, they acquired Reyes last season and Naylor this season. Those 2 bats are the types that are needed. If you're gonna fail, fail big is my moto when it comes to putting a lineup together. I'd rather bank on high upside and be disappointed than infuse guys like DeShields and Naquin and get what you expect. This is why I would have lived or died with Johnson somewhere in the OF this year. FFS, what would have it hurt?
 
We'll see what happens with Naquin but with a base salary of only $1.4 million last year and having a bad mini-season this year, plus factoring in his injury history, I don't see him getting a raise next year. Will they "gamble" something like $1.5 million on a guy that realistically could hit .288/.792 next year when they're desperate for offense in the outfield? I think that's not much of a risk and there's some decent upside.

If they add an outfielder and decide to move Naylor to first base, or if they switch Jones to first base and plan to bring him up from Columbus at some point in the seaosn, or if they get Santana back at a bargain price, then I agree Bradley and Bauers are not in the picture other than playing ball in Columbus.

This is all assuming there is a normal season next year which is questionable if reports that a vaccine won't be ready until next summer or fall are correct.

I don't know what they think about Chang. He's 25. The clock is ticking. It would be nice if he becomes the next Gio Urshela only for our team. Gio didn't hit in the bigs until age 27.

From the web site overtimeheroics.net:

Gio Urshela always had a great glove, but his weakness at the plate was his downfall. It was the reason why he could not stay on an MLB roster. However, Yankees, Triple-A hitting coach, Phil Plantier, helped Urshela fix his swing. Plantier emphasized how important using your legs are in your swing. Before Plantier, Urshela did not use his legs much resulting in him not being able to drive the ball. They also worked on his batting stance. Plantier’s coaching seemed to have immediate affect on Urshela as he batted .307 with 2 home runs and 12 RBIs and an .815 OPS in just 27 games. The Yankees were so impressed with his improvement they locked him up on a minor league deal.

OK, this makes me really fucking angry. NINE years we had Urshela. We signed him when he was 17 and gave up on him when he was 25. How many hitting coaches did he work with in the Indians organization at every level in those nine years? And not ONE of them could figure out something so simple as getting his legs more involved? This totally explains why ALL our young outfielders crapped out last year. We don't have ANY competent hitting coaches!!! We threw away a Gold Glove caliber third baseman because nobody could figure out how to help him hit. We gave away a 4.0 WAR player!

Imagine Gio at third and Hosey at second.

The guy that immediately fixed Gio's swing upon his arrival wasn't even their major league hitting coach. It was a minor league coach. The Indians have assembled an impressive group of pitching coaches. Now they need to find somebody who knows how to teach hitting. Maybe after trading or releasing half the team this off-season they'll have enough money to invest in some decent hitting coaches.


I recall the conversations on the IBI board about Gio. I thought it was a mistake to let him walk because there were signs that he could be a good hitter. Mainly, he was difficult to strike out due to his incredible hand/eye coordination. Even before incorporating more of his lower half he showed glimpses of power. What never come into question was the fact that he would one day win a GG. In hindsight, the difference is that we had a replacement for him. I'm not at all mad about Gio because not having Gio isn't the issue.

They need to not bring Santana back. The same goes for Naquin and DeShields. Look, I acknowledge that Los had an incredible 2019 season and that it was only logical to bring him back while saving a few million and acquiring a top 100 talent, but are we really surprised by his god awful season when considering his past? This team needs a slugger that doesn't wait to start hitting until after the AS break. You're pissed because they let Gio walk, well I'm pissed because they let Aguilar walk. That was a position of greater need IMO. In 9 minor league seasons he slashed 271/348/454/802 and in 7 major league seasons(some partial) he slashed 259/336/470/806. He is who he's always been and that's a pretty damn good hitter.

Johnson is a talented 25 yr old with a minor league slash of 284/344/460/804. He's improved as he's advanced. It's time to stop messing around with players like DeShields and Naquin and plug him in the lineup FFS. It's not like you would be taking AB's away from Mike Trout.

Now that I think about it, the same thing is being done to Bauers and he may very well be the next regret. We're(me included) are quick to blame these kids for not living up to their hype, but what if the problem is organizational? There's a case for that argument to be made IMO.
 
Nobody is mad at DeShields for anything. The problem with DeShields, is that he doesn't move the needle on a team bereft of power. Well, that and I didn't think a RP and him were nearly enough for Kluber............and I still don't. I would have rather received Clase and a lower level guy or nothing at all.

Domingo was an experiment they had to try due to not having any corner OF bats. It failed, but who did they replace him with? Naquin, who hasn't performed like a corner OFer should since the first half of 2016. I don't know if the issue is philosophical, physical, or both, but there is certainly an "issue". On the brighter side, they acquired Reyes last season and Naylor this season. Those 2 bats are the types that are needed. If you're gonna fail, fail big is my moto when it comes to putting a lineup together. I'd rather bank on high upside and be disappointed than infuse guys like DeShields and Naquin and get what you expect. This is why I would have lived or died with Johnson somewhere in the OF this year. FFS, what would have it hurt?

Indians took the best offer they could get for Kluber. Everyone agrees they wanted more, but since that's what they took, that told me the market for Kluber was gone and they got what they could.

Domingo experiment happens and it was worth doing. It's very possible he is back in the camp in 21 as well if they can get him to agree to a minor league invite with incentives.

You are way too harsh on DeShields and Naquin. Neither of them are going to get paid a lot. I am not saying they have to make the final roster next season, but they arent letting them go unless they have someone better and proven to replace them.
 
Indians took the best offer they could get for Kluber. Everyone agrees they wanted more, but since that's what they took, that told me the market for Kluber was gone and they got what they could.

Domingo experiment happens and it was worth doing. It's very possible he is back in the camp in 21 as well if they can get him to agree to a minor league invite with incentives.

You are way too harsh on DeShields and Naquin. Neither of them are going to get paid a lot. I am not saying they have to make the final roster next season, but they arent letting them go unless they have someone better and proven to replace them.
They took the best offer for Kluber in that time frame maybe, but it was a rushed process IMO and they certainly did not have to take DeShields since there was already numerous CFers already on the team.

Again, I agree that the Domingo experiment was worth doing. There's a lot of upside with him. It didn't work and I can live with that. Sometimes it will work.

I'm not being "harsh" on DeShields and Naquin. I'm just calling it as it is. They are not difference makers and no one expects them to be. They are league average at best and a talented, unproven rookie would make less than them. I'd rather live or die on the possibilities of that talent. Clearly you prefer the more known entities even if they aren't much. I don't think we'll compete with the Twins, White Sox, Yankees, or any other club that assembles a dangerous lineup and can pitch even just a little. Clearly I've stated the obvious here so I'm not trying to create a "told you so" moment. It is what it is.
 
They took the best offer for Kluber in that time frame maybe, but it was a rushed process IMO and they certainly did not have to take DeShields since there was already numerous CFers already on the team.

Again, I agree that the Domingo experiment was worth doing. There's a lot of upside with him. It didn't work and I can live with that. Sometimes it will work.

I'm not being "harsh" on DeShields and Naquin. I'm just calling it as it is. They are not difference makers and no one expects them to be. They are league average at best and a talented, unproven rookie would make less than them. I'd rather live or die on the possibilities of that talent. Clearly you prefer the more known entities even if they aren't much. I don't think we'll compete with the Twins, White Sox, Yankees, or any other club that assembles a dangerous lineup and can pitch even just a little. Clearly I've stated the obvious here so I'm not trying to create a "told you so" moment. It is what it is.

DeShields played to his career averages. He was never meant to be an everyday player and never will be an everyday player. He was supposed to be our 4th OF. I just dont think its fair to a guy who actually was our best OF and played to his career numbers to be cut just because. He doesn't deserve to be cut at the end of the day.

Naquin had .288/.325/.467 in 19 and he looked solid when he came back from injury, he just struggled down the stretch. He was coming off of a torn ACL so if you expect him to be 100% back to normal then you know nothing about the body. His play in 19 in my mind, was sustainable and if he's 100% he should be back at that level with a full spring. I am betting on Naquin to be the Naquin of 19 not the down the stretch Naquin of 20.

If DeShields is cut, it's because of what he is due, but cutting Naquin makes no sense and I dont think it should nor will happen period.
 
DeShields played to his career averages. He was never meant to be an everyday player and never will be an everyday player. He was supposed to be our 4th OF. I just dont think its fair to a guy who actually was our best OF and played to his career numbers to be cut just because. He doesn't deserve to be cut at the end of the day.

Naquin had .288/.325/.467 in 19 and he looked solid when he came back from injury, he just struggled down the stretch. He was coming off of a torn ACL so if you expect him to be 100% back to normal then you know nothing about the body. His play in 19 in my mind, was sustainable and if he's 100% he should be back at that level with a full spring. I am betting on Naquin to be the Naquin of 19 not the down the stretch Naquin of 20.

If DeShields is cut, it's because of what he is due, but cutting Naquin makes no sense and I dont think it should nor will happen period.

I've had ACL reconstruction/replacement so I do "know the body". It pretty much changed the course of my life. I also know the physical work put in to return as fast as possible is beneficial. Since that impressive first half of 2016 Naquin's performance has been inconsistent to say the least. His OPS the last 4 seasons is 520,651,792,and 632. His ceiling is low and in no way shape or form should he be the starting RFer for a contending team unless LF and CF have studs. Even then, if you can put a more talented player in his place then they should do so. We haven't even talked about his inability to stay on the field.

Mentioning that DeShields was "our best OF" speaks volumes about how dismal the OF situation was. It needs to be addressed and not with filler/replacement level players. That is if you want to win, and I do. You can claim he was cut for financial reasons or that his feet stink up the clubhouse. I don't give a shit as long as he's no longer the starting CFer for the Indians or blocking younger, more talented players. I wish him no ill will, quite the opposite in fact, just not here.

You need to come to the realization that trotting out league average players isn't going to win ball games. You also need to understand that the risk of playing unproven, but talented young players has to happen at some point. Very few if any come out of the gate on fire and this organization isn't good with promoting them in a time when they are more developed and ready than ever before. They'd rather pick up a mediocre vet than give a young player that has been struggling a longer look. That could be for financial reasons or poor judgement, either way it needs to change.
 
To piggyback off of what @DerekG123 has alluded to in the previous two posts, the Indians have actually taken the opposite approach when it comes to pitching. They have allowed young arms like Plesac, Civale, McKenzie to continue their development in the big leagues and learn on the job, as opposed to signing stop-gap veterans to eat innings in the rotation. Obviously, it's worked wonders for them, while the same can not be said regarding position players overall.

I think it's a misconception to say the Indians have not allowed their young position players time to develop. The infield has been more or less locked in dating back to 2015 when Lindor debuted. We had Alonso take 1B for 2018 and Cesar take 2B in 2020, both of which I thought were quality signings at the time that made sense.

So that leaves the outfield. Greg Allen had nearly 550 plate appearances in 2018 and 2019. Mercado and Bauers ranked 5th and 7th for the team in plate appearances in 2018 and 2019. Naquin has been given plenty of time and has spent plenty of time on the DL. Zimmer has not looked impressive when he's healthy. Luplow has been given time, albeit probably not enough.

Essentially, I wouldn't confuse lack of production for lack of trying. Not to say the Indians aren't without fault. Hanley Ramirez and CarGo were clearly washed. Melky produced well for them in 2018, They took too long to cut bait with Martin for Mercado last year. For his defensive shortcomings I still loved the Domingo Santana signing but he just didn't hit this year.

Yandy Diaz is the biggest headscratcher but that unfortunately seems like a Tito vendetta
 
I've had ACL reconstruction/replacement so I do "know the body". It pretty much changed the course of my life. I also know the physical work put in to return as fast as possible is beneficial. Since that impressive first half of 2016 Naquin's performance has been inconsistent to say the least. His OPS the last 4 seasons is 520,651,792,and 632. His ceiling is low and in no way shape or form should he be the starting RFer for a contending team unless LF and CF have studs. Even then, if you can put a more talented player in his place then they should do so. We haven't even talked about his inability to stay on the field.

Mentioning that DeShields was "our best OF" speaks volumes about how dismal the OF situation was. It needs to be addressed and not with filler/replacement level players. That is if you want to win, and I do. You can claim he was cut for financial reasons or that his feet stink up the clubhouse. I don't give a shit as long as he's no longer the starting CFer for the Indians or blocking younger, more talented players. I wish him no ill will, quite the opposite in fact, just not here.

You need to come to the realization that trotting out league average players isn't going to win ball games. You also need to understand that the risk of playing unproven, but talented young players has to happen at some point. Very few if any come out of the gate on fire and this organization isn't good with promoting them in a time when they are more developed and ready than ever before. They'd rather pick up a mediocre vet than give a young player that has been struggling a longer look. That could be for financial reasons or poor judgement, either way it needs to change.

Johnson didn't look ready at the plate when he was out there. Zimmer had a chance and blew it. Mercado struggled. Who did they block this season? Who did they take ABs from? Naquin was going to be the starter in one of the OF spots.

Johnson is a corner OF, not a CF, so DeShields isn't take ABs from him. Naquin bats from the left side and has been best in a platoon (19 before he got hurt he was disproving that).

I am all for letting the young guys play and we dont know how much everyone will progress, but at the same time, in a 60 game season, we cannot just go hey, its your position so go play.

Now when it comes to 21, they will keep Naquin, but in my mind, if Johnson is as good as everyone thinks he is, then he can take the spot from Naquin. Johnson has to earn that spot not be given it.
 
They took the best offer for Kluber in that time frame maybe, but it was a rushed process IMO and they certainly did not have to take DeShields since there was already numerous CFers already on the team.

Again, I agree that the Domingo experiment was worth doing. There's a lot of upside with him. It didn't work and I can live with that. Sometimes it will work.

I'm not being "harsh" on DeShields and Naquin. I'm just calling it as it is. They are not difference makers and no one expects them to be. They are league average at best and a talented, unproven rookie would make less than them. I'd rather live or die on the possibilities of that talent. Clearly you prefer the more known entities even if they aren't much. I don't think we'll compete with the Twins, White Sox, Yankees, or any other club that assembles a dangerous lineup and can pitch even just a little. Clearly I've stated the obvious here so I'm not trying to create a "told you so" moment. It is what it is.
Well, you might get your wish. I could see a lineup next year that consists of Luplow, Mercado, and Johnson in the outfield and Naylor at first. I would not be at all surprised if they let Naquin and DeShields go. If somebody gets hurt they can play Naylor in left and Bauers at first base.
 
Well, you might get your wish. I could see a lineup next year that consists of Luplow, Mercado, and Johnson in the outfield and Naylor at first. I would not be at all surprised if they let Naquin and DeShields go. If somebody gets hurt they can play Naylor in left and Bauers at first base.

I would put good money on Naquin being back. Either DeShields or Zimmer will be gone though probably.
 
Couple of things off the cuff:
1. I don't think Naquin will be tendered an offer.
2. Naylor's defense in LF vastly improved with his conditioning so your numbers are probably skewed a bit.
3. I do not think Reyes will see much time in the OF, but I could be wrong.
4. If another LF/1B is acquired then Bauers and Bradley are f'd. They might be f'd anyway if Jones proves ready.
5. It's difficult to estimate what the roster will look like without knowing what the Lindor trade will net them.
6. I expect Chang to be handed SS duties to bridge the gap to Arias. They will not block him.
7. I expect Miller to win 2B duties. His profile is much like Hernandez's, he's just unproven at the highest level.

Non-tendering Naquin would be a mistake. I know he wasn't great this year and has issues staying on the field but he's the only outfielder we have that is anything close to a proven commodity.
 
To further illustrate my point on Naquin, if you let him go along with Santana and trading Lindor, you have a TON of holes.

C - Perez or Hedges
1B - ?
2B - ?
SS - ?
3B - JRam
LF - Naylor
CF - ?
RF -?
DH - Reyes

Bradley/Bauers/N. Jones could be 1B but Jones is the only one that excites me. 2B or SS could be filled by Chang if they finally give him a shot...maybe Miller fills the other. You have to a ML-ready OF in the Lindor trade because there's no way I'm trusting TWO of Mercado/Bauers/Luplow/DeShields/Johnson.
 
Non-tendering Naquin would be a mistake. I know he wasn't great this year and has issues staying on the field but he's the only outfielder we have that is anything close to a proven commodity.
Proven mediocre commodity, yes.
 

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