Baker Mayfield: Fire The Cannons

I'mWithDan said:

We are in a pretty no win situation, to me, unless something dramatically changes.

Baker isn't worth $30 million a year........but we also realistically cannot trade up to correct this mistake either. Our defensive talent is generally a disaster up the middle and we need all available draft capital to fix that unit, in all likelihood. So it is possible that we just have to pay Baker and hope for the best, not because he's worth it but because that is the only realistic avenue at this point.

Maybe the Browns get lucky and an unexpected veteran hits the market or they unexpectedly develop a mid round pick but for now......we are probably going off this cliff with Baker and hoping we simply glide to the ground. Buy as much time as we can while either A. hoping he develops or B. until a contingency plan can take hold.

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how can we be 4-1 and in a no win situation?

best would be baker develops but not enough to be paid like a star, then we sign him really long term for that tier of qb and then he plays like a star.
I also think we have to get away from the sense of urgency like this is some unique time and our only chance to win it all. There will be cap casualties. As long as it isnt Wyatt Teller we will be fine. Feel the zen of it all. If we have a program and good systems, we will draft players to replace those who cost too much for their value.
This goes for Baker too. I doubt he holds us hostage but if he tries to, I think we will move on. One day DPJ might start outside. Bryant might play Njoku off of the team. It’s just too early to tell.
once again w Baker: give it 8 games and after that, start looking for improvement, not a finished product.
It’s like the trophy is the goal but 10 wins and a playoff win would be an incredible year and vast outperformance. I hope everyone is smelling the roses with this start.

The Browns have some of ya'll so trapped in unhappiness that you'll do anything to stay there.

natedagg said:

how can we be 4-1 and in a no win situation?

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Look at it this way. The Bears went 12-4 with Mitch Trubisky. Now he's sitting behind Nick Foles and probably done in Chicago. They're also 4-1 but their future at QB is up in the air. We're not that far off from a very similar situation.

The Bears should've upgraded from Trubisky this offseason and signed Cam Newton. Instead they traded for Nick Foles who other than Baker is the worst QB on the teams who have at least 4 wins. Trubisky is in a contract year just like Baker will be next season. And just like Chicago we will have to make a decision on Baker at the end of this season. I just don't want no half stepping shit where we sign a Case Keenum type like Chicago did with Foles and end up benching Baker. I'd rather cut our losses at the end of this season and hit next season rolling.

Cassity14 said:

The Browns have some of ya'll so trapped in unhappiness that you'll do anything to stay there.

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I think that is a lazy argument at this point. I am not speaking to the organization or the team as a whole, I am speaking to a specific personnel decision.

I do think Baker is currently stuck in the "no win" zone.....relative to his draft capital investment, pending salary decision and his to date performance.

The argument to potentially move on from him is actually the OPPOSITE of being trapped in unhappiness......it is actually pointing out that the situation around him is so good and the team outlook so promising, that we may actually need to move on from him if he doesn't improve, because he might be holding the offense back.

If people don't want to have that debate, fine......there are other threads to talk about how happy everyone is with the TEAM. I am speaking specifically to a single decision that needs to be made (Baker's future).......which is a lot murkier to me.

Los216 said:

You keep throwing around that word elite and it doesn't make any sense. So according to you there's maybe 5 teams who have their guy? You are using extremes when evaluating QB's. In your eyes they are either elite or complete trash and that's a horrible way to look at it. Your QB doesn't have to be elite for you to get to a Super Bowl. Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers have only been to one each. Being elite doesn't give you a free pass.

In the last 10 years

Kurt Warner
Eli Manning
Joe Flacco
Colin Kaepernick
Washed Peyton Manning
Cam Newton
Matt Ryan
Carson Wentz
Nick Foles
Jared Goff
Jimmy Garrapplo

All led their teams to Super Bowl appearances. How many elite QB's were on that list? You tried to diss me when I mentioned Matt Ryan by saying he wasn't elite when he led his team to a Super Bowl and won the MVP that season. Just like Cam Newton.

Look at that list. It is absolutely not a requirement to have an elite QB in order to make a Super Bowl.

The question for Baker that needs to be answered is can he lead you to a Super Bowl. Next season is the last year of his rookie deal. That has huge implications for us financially. he is either going to play on the Franchise tag which is going to be $30M next season or he's going to sign a long term deal which will be $30M annually. Either way. If you're not sure he's the guy by the end of this season it doesn't make any sense to continue going forward with him next year. Bottom line is after this season Baker Mayfield is going to be a $30M per year QB. It's inevitable. If you don't think he's the guy then why waste your time?

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You haven't even bothered to read the data presented to you, or try to genuinely understand what others are telling you.

Nobody has ever said having an elite QB is a "Free pass" to the super bowl, and your list includes multiple scenarios that are the described recipe for success that people are telling you we should model ourselves after.

I think we're done here.

Los216 said:

FOH. I don't watch games because you disagree with me? That's bullshit.

I mean The Bears drafted Mitch Trubisky #2 and went and signed a FA QB and then benched his ass. And Trubisky led them to the playoffs after winning their division. I don't see how looking at options other than Baker Mayfield is so ridiculous. Do you want to end up in a similar situation as The bears? What's their future at QB look like? Draft? Free Agent? Trade? They ain't going back to Trubisky and Foles is probably more of a stop gap. Their wasting an elite defense because they didn't have the balls to move on from their QB fast enough. They could've signed Cam Newton this offseason and be a Super Bowl contender.

I don't want The Browns to be in a similar situation with Baker that Chicago was with Trubisky. We are almost at that point unless baker puts all of this to rest and seals the deal.

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The Bears, who currently have two bad quarterbacks, are not the example to build your argument around.

Baker is significantly better than both of their current QB's

Los216 said:

I'm not saying that I'm ignoring everything that you're saying about past Browns QB's but I'm ignoring everything that you're saying about past Browns QB's lololololoololol

What we cannot do is grade Baker on a Browns QB curve. I ran off a list of QBs who led their teams to a Super Bowl in the last 10 years and there's a bunch of non sexy names on that list. So if Baker Mayfield ends up being a Matt Ryan or Matt Stafford that's not exactly doomsday for us. You can make a Super Bowl with that caliber of QB. The real question for Baker specifically is can he lead you to a Super Bowl.

Now me personally, I think Matt Stafford in a better organization can potentially make a Super Bowl. The other QB's who I suggested going after in the offseason, Matt Ryan and Cam Newton, have led their teams to Super Bowls.

One other thing I forgot to mention is Baker's physical limitations. For some reason he looks worse athletically then he did coming into the league. Am I the only one who thinks he's lost a step athletically? I'm also starting to worry more about his height then I want to admit. I've been trying not mention his height since it's obviously something that is what it is but it feels like one of those things that's just going to be a hard hill to climb over for him. I still think Baker struggles with some things on the field due to his height. Now he can play though all of this and end up being our guy but I'd be lying my ass off if I said that I wasn't skeptical.

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Baker could develop into a Super Bowl QB. I am not 100% sure he is a future HOFer, but he is better than some qb's who have made a super bowl like Flacco. Honestly think Baker is having a decent year for a 3rd year qb and he hus just begun his true growth from a good coaching staff. Really need to see where he is at in a couple of years and if he continues to grow.

Defense gets better and this s a SB team with Baker.

Jesus Christ ‍‍ Baker is in his 3rd year with 4 different offensive coordinators/head coach. Let the kid develop before talking replacement. You can see he is working hard on what stefanski wants out of him. The way I see it is stefanski is basically starting from scratch with baker and treating him like a rookie, to try and break bad habits. Which honestly is great coaching. With no off season and a new system that is very difficult for QB’s to fully grasp, it’s going to take a while. Baker has the talent, we have seen it. Let the coaches develop him over the next year and a half and then we go from there. If he isn’t getting better towards the end of the year or next year then and only then do you make that decision. You gotta remember this team is still very young. Especially wanting to replace him with some washed up shit QB’s like Stanford or matt Ryan.

I feel Baker is staying in the pocket more this year, and gaining more trust in his line to do so which the good news. The bad news I just get the feeling alot of his bad throws are from the pocket as well. The silver lining I hope is that he can keep passing from the pocket and still have the mental strength too get better and make better decisions as the season progressess. I just get the sense that Stefanski wants him too keep making plays on roll outs, etc his strength but the next level is to sometimes keep in the pocket and make big throws from their too.

Los216 said:

FOH. I don't watch games because you disagree with me? That's bullshit.

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Nah, bruh. I'm stayin' in here.

You don't watch games because the BS argument you're using against Baker isn't used against the very QBs you're desperately saying we should trade for. Have you watched Matt Ryan this year? You obviously haven't. Have you watched Matthew Stafford? Both QBs are screwing over their teams with surrendering leads from bad decisions in the pocket.

I think you're just pessimistic and forever on an emotional tilt. You've been all over the place these last several weeks lol. L2read the room.

I mean The Bears drafted Mitch Trubisky #2 and went and signed a FA QB and then benched his ass. And Trubisky led them to the playoffs after winning their division. I don't see how looking at options other than Baker Mayfield is so ridiculous. Do you want to end up in a similar situation as The bears? What's their future at QB look like? Draft? Free Agent? Trade? They ain't going back to Trubisky and Foles is probably more of a stop gap. Their wasting an elite defense because they didn't have the balls to move on from their QB fast enough. They could've signed Cam Newton this offseason and be a Super Bowl contender.

I don't want The Browns to be in a similar situation with Baker that Chicago was with Trubisky. We are almost at that point unless baker puts all of this to rest and seals the deal.

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Trubisky? You're comparing Baker to Trubisky? Have you ever watched him play? Don't look at stats - don't pull up pro-football reference or whatever the hell you're doing. Watch him PLAY - and then get back at me. And then you said Trubisky led the Bears to the playoffs? You can't make this shit up.

There are clearly conflicting philosophies among posters in here, all with the Browns’ best interest in mind. Nothing wrong with a respectful debate.

Just a friendly reminder to keep it respectful and not to make it personal.

For the record...I’m in the camp that can see a tricky situation arising with Baker in the future depending on how his season unfolds, but I am also completely confident and thankful that we seem to have the proper adults in the room (DePo, Berry, and Stefanski) to make a sound, strategic decision on him.

chrisrich91 said:

There are clearly conflicting philosophies among posters in here, all with the Browns’ best interest in mind. Nothing wrong with a respectful debate.

Just a friendly reminder to keep it respectful and not to make it personal.

For the record...I’m in the camp that can see a tricky situation arising with Baker in the future depending on how his season unfolds, but I am also completely confident and thankful that we seem to have the proper adults in the room (DePo, Berry, and Stefanski) to make a sound, strategic decision on him.

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Meh, it feels less like a debate and more like needless bickering at this point. Which is crazy because I think most people see the situation with Baker to be tricky, and from what I've seen Baker takes criticism from both camps. But the neverending barrage of doom and gloom and "We need a new QB, things are trending so badly right now" week after week, regardless of Baker's performance or our team winning is tiresome lol.

I haven't seen anyone take the polar opposite approach in favor of Baker (most seem to be even keel). I'd find that equally annoying, heh.

Baker is definitely in the pocket more this year and making smarter throws. He seems at a minimum more risk-averse than we've seen before. I just wish we had his accuracy from his rookie year. He's missed some wide-open throws he made in year one.

KCOTT said:

Baker is definitely in the pocket more this year and making smarter throws. He seems at a minimum more risk-averse than we've seen before. I just wish we had his accuracy from his rookie year. He's missed some wide-open throws he made in year one.

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Is Baker better in the pocket this year, or is the line just better? Not trying to be confrontational with that, I just don’t really know how to answer that question.

The eye test tells me he’s looked good on roll-outs. I haven’t seen him look that great in the pocket and he seems to be sailing a lot of throws when he’s been in the pocket. He had some throws in the Indy game that were quite risky/late that a WR made a play on. The main one that comes to mind is the completion where Landry jumped over top of that LB to grab the ball. Had the ball been delivered on time, Landry had a bunch of room to run after the catch. If the defender would’ve had the presence of mind to turn around, the throw damn near would’ve hit him in stride.

I’m sure someone can provide his stats for his time in the pocket. One of his picks against Indy was caused by the hit, but it did occur in the pocket. I was trying to find the highlights to look at his 2nd pick, but I believe it was from the pocket as well.

I’m trying not to be overly critical about Baker as I do still believe he has a lot of room to develop, but we haven’t asked him to do a ton yet. He’s looked great on rollouts, but eventually teams will scheme ways to keep in him the pocket and make him beat them from there.

The accuracy and pocket presence are definitely the two main things I’ll be watching the rest of the year. The turnovers are definitely very important, too, but I think if he’s improving his pocket presence and his accuracy, both will help keep his turnover rate low.

Bob_The_Cat said:

Is Baker better in the pocket this year, or is the line just better? Not trying to be confrontational with that, I just don’t really know how to answer that question.

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I think it's a combination of both.

Baker has done small, hard-to-notice things better this year than he has in his entire NFL career. Understanding coverages, looking defenders off, when to go to the hot route, etc... The Orange and Brown report has started breaking down each pass he has made, beginning with the Cowboys game. Against the Colts in the 1st half Baker was pretty masterful - he wasn't simply making easy passes and reads. What lots of fans don't realize (until watching the breakdown) is that he was confusing the defense with his eyes and making superb reads. The Colts had pretty good defensive coverages in their zones, while their eyes were on him the entire time. But Baker was able to slyly lead them in one direction before delivering to the other side.

Baker has shown improvement in small areas that make a difference (compared to last year) but the problem is that he's extremely inconsistent. He will do the right things an entire drive or x amount of plays, and then the next drive or certain plays fall right back into old/bad habits. It's weird because while he has generally been terrible an anticipating leverage, in the Colts game he seemed to recognize leverage at times but not quite trust his own eyes to deliver the ball fast enough. This would explain some of the hitching.

Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like he's improving on smaller stuff and it's helping his game, he just have to be consistent and regain that confidence. It's not a matter of seeing something, it's a matter of knowing where other defenders are, where they're angling, what they're looking at, and anticipating if they're able to make a play on the ball before throwing it. There are so many nuances that takes place in the 2.5-3 seconds he has in the pocket that it's understandable how it can take some time to become more consistent. I think some QBs (like Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes) are so naturally gifted at this and make it look easy.
Baker may be a year or two off before we truly see him at his best. We can just hope that he improves enough for us to make a sound decision. But he seems to be trending upward rather than downward, at least IMO and from the evaluations I've seen of him.

Here's the breakdown of what I talked about. Baker takes a TON of criticism but the guy in the video says it's not because Baker is doing badly, it's just because there is a lot to improve on and he needs more consistency. There are a lot of plays in which a guy is covered but if Baker trusted his evaluation of leverage, the guy would break open. Baker has to get better at this. I love that Stefanski is running such a great scheme - even on the non-PA rollouts you can see how much better it is than Freddie's. Night and day. I think Baker need some time in it to build those good habits.