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2020-21 Offseason Discussion

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I'd love to see a link. I've looked and can't find one. You kinda think noga, or castrovince, or Hoynes or Pluto would've written this up. you would also think that Pluto or Hoynes who have written about trading Carrasco recently would've mentioned this in their articles if they knew it to be true. esp Pluto since he seems to have Dolan as a source and was priming (imo) everyone to consider that cookie could well be traded.

This was right when he signed, so pretty much Carrasco stating he wanted to retire an Indian and Antonetti essentially putting Carrasco was on the trading block rumors to rest.

I know there was more stated at one point, but I cannot just remember when. Either way ill agree to disagree with peeps. I just remember what I heard/saw. I am 100% positive Carrasco isnt going to go anywhere until his contract is up.
 
The Rays don’t get sentimental over their players and they’re still playing ball in late October. It’s a business.
 
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Jose isn't going anywhere any time soon. There's really no reason to even speculate until this time next season. The Indians are not rebuilding.

To be honest, I would not be surprised if they work out an extension with him as well.
Who said they were rebuilding? I called it retooling. Whatever happens, I doubt they get themselves in the same situation they have with Lindor. Better to trade them a little early than too late. Kluber is another example. They could load this team up by trading Lindor and Ramirez. That's without mentioning trading another SP in the event that one is acquired from trading Lindor and/or Ramirez. There is absolutely reason to speculate. They are in a financial pinch and trading the most expensive contracts is certainly a possibility as long as there are teams interested in said players. I'm not stating any of these ideas as fact. They're just ideas on how I think this team can load up with talent while cutting payroll and getting rid of mediocre, more expensive players like DeShields and Naquin. You don't have to agree with my ideas and I don't take offense to your thoughts as well.

As far as Carrasco is concerned, I won't even speculate what has, or hasn't been agreed upon. All I know is that he is due to make $12M next season and looks to be back to his old form. A SP of his caliber at the price has a lot of value and I'm sure there would be multiple teams interested in acquiring him. I love the guy and I'm extremely happy that he is healthy, but this is a business and CA's responsibility is to keep it financially healthy.
 
I would not be all that surprised to see them burn it down and trade Ramirez, Lindor, and Carrasco thereby cutting the payroll to the bone while simultaneously setting themselves up with the best farm system in baseball when you add in the fruits of the trades of Bauer, Kluber, and Clevinger plus what they had before those deals. Take two steps back now in order to take five steps up in a couple of years. New name and a tsunami of young talent arriving circa 2022.

With Lindor, Hand, and Santana gone they're not going to compete with the top teams in the A.L. Ramirez would be wasted. Might as well trade him when his value will never be higher.
 
I would not be all that surprised to see them burn it down and trade Ramirez, Lindor, and Carrasco thereby cutting the payroll to the bone while simultaneously setting themselves up with the best farm system in baseball when you add in the fruits of the trades of Bauer, Kluber, and Clevinger plus what they had before those deals. Take two steps back now in order to take five steps up in a couple of years. New name and a tsunami of young talent arriving circa 2022.

With Lindor, Hand, and Santana gone they're not going to compete with the top teams in the A.L. Ramirez would be wasted. Might as well trade him when his value will never be higher.

Why do you say "burn it down"? The pitching staff will remain one of the league's best. Infusing young, inexpensive talent positionally is risky, but we're talking about one of the league's worst offenses. I see it as a strong possibility of improving the overall roster. You're not going to replace Lindor or Ramirez with better players, but if other positions can be strengthened while replacing Lindor and Ramirez with good, young players then the end result might very well be a better team and a healthier organization. To think that this team can't compete without Santana is absurd. It's more accurate to say that this team will remain uncompetitive paying players like Santana large amounts of money to underperform.

How this team can remain unable to compete is to continue with the status quo. The Twins, White Sox, and soon to be Tigers are not sitting idly by waiting on the Indians to fall from grace.
 
Who said they were rebuilding? I called it retooling. Whatever happens, I doubt they get themselves in the same situation they have with Lindor. Better to trade them a little early than too late. Kluber is another example. They could load this team up by trading Lindor and Ramirez. That's without mentioning trading another SP in the event that one is acquired from trading Lindor and/or Ramirez. There is absolutely reason to speculate. They are in a financial pinch and trading the most expensive contracts is certainly a possibility as long as there are teams interested in said players. I'm not stating any of these ideas as fact. They're just ideas on how I think this team can load up with talent while cutting payroll and getting rid of mediocre, more expensive players like DeShields and Naquin. You don't have to agree with my ideas and I don't take offense to your thoughts as well.

There is a 0% chance Jose is moved this offseason so yeah there’s no reason to speculate.

The Indians plan on being competitive now and in the future. For the Indians to be competitive in the present day, Jose Ramirez is a massive massive massive piece to that equation. Trade Francisco Lindor and Jose Ramirez, with three years left on one of the biggest bargain and team friendly contracts in the history of baseball, in the same offseason, and you might as well just relocate the franchise tomorrow.

I also think the biggest misnomer is that these (likely) Indians moves this offseason are purely financial and I don’t think that’s entirely the case.

Finances certainly play a part, especially with Frankie, but guys like Santana, Hand, Perez and to an extent Carrasco have in-house replacements where you can get similar production at a much cheaper cost.

I don’t think it’s a big deal when you trade a guy (in relation to his contract status). Could the Indians have gotten more by trading Lindor sooner? Maybe. But the Indians tried getting a Lux or Senzel for him last offseason and their respective teams still didn’t bite. So if you're not getting the ultimate desired return at any point then really what's the difference between trading him with two years left on his deal vs. one? I don't think the difference is probably worth the PR hit and loss of MLB production to be honest.

I don't think the Indians moved Kluber too late. I think that's playing Monday Morning QB. The guy was worth ~13 fWAR in his previous two seasons combined and had an extremely team friendly deal in relation to his production. He got hurt, production dipped, the contract lost it's friendliness to the team and so they moved him for what they could. Shit happens sometimes....

I just don't think it's realistic to have a competitive team if you constantly sell off your best players at their peak value. You'd perpetually be in a state of rebuilding or retooling or whatever you want to call it. It's all about weighing the opportunity cost.

For a team like the Indians, it's how they remain competitive. They're heavily reliant on the contributions of guys like Corey Kluber and Jose Ramirez and Francisco Lindor and Shane Bieber for a period of time until the next wave of talent arrives. It's how they survive, it's how they remain competitive without tearing it down. They might not be a World Series competitor every year but they're in the hunt every year and that means something.....
 
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There is a 0% chance Jose is moved this offseason so yeah there’s no reason to speculate.

The Indians plan on being competitive now and in the future. For the Indians to be competitive in the present day, Jose Ramirez is a massive massive massive piece to that equation. Trade Jose Ramirez, with three years left on one of the biggest bargain and team friendly contracts in the history of baseball, and Francisco Lindor in the same offseason and you might as well just relocate the franchise tomorrow.

I also think the biggest misnomer is that these (likely) Indians moves this offseason are purely financial and I don’t think that’s entirely the case.

Finances certainly play a part, especially with Frankie, but guys like Santana, Hand, Perez and to an extent Carrasco have in-house replacements where you can get similar production at a much cheaper cost.

I also don’t think it’s a big deal when you trade a guy. Could the Indians have gotten more by trading Lindor sooner? Maybe. But the Indians tried getting a Lux or Senzel for him last offseason and their respective teams still didn’t bite.

I'm not saying that Ramirez will be traded, I'm merely suggesting that they could add a lot of good, young, inexpensive talent by doing so. I'd say the chances of him actually being traded this offseason are slim to none, but I would see what teams are offering before stamping it with a "0% chance".

I stated in an earlier post that you will not replace Ramirez or Lindor if/when they are traded, but you could improve the overall quality of the team with good returns along with securing the team's ability to compete in the coming years. I absolutely agree with your statement that guys like Santana, Hand, Perez, and Carrasco can be replaced with similar production at a much cheaper cost. I'd also suggest the same applies to Naquin and DeShields although thier cost is minimal.

I'm not going to attempt to guess what teams offered for Lindor last year. What I believe is that the Indians were not ready to trade him even if the offer was good. I don't think the relocation of the franchise will be necessary, and maybe the opposite will happen when several of the young players mature together. That's what happened in the 90's when Thome, Manny, Visquel, Lofton, Belle, and Alomar matured together. It's not like attendance has been good with Lindor and Ramirez or anyone else the last several years. I would be all for switching the Indians and the Clippers. Build a stadium just outside the 270 belt north of Columbus and they'd probably sell out every game.
 
Fascinating ranking of MLB teams scouting and development departments: Tribe and Rays second highest tier below the Dodgers.

 
Somebody named "Natedog" suggested the following Indians/Mets trade:

Mets get: Francisco Lindor
Indians get: Brandon Nimmo (OF), Andres Gimenez (SS), Matthew Allan (RHP), Ryley Gilliam (RHP)

On the face of this deal.. Lindor for two years of Nimmo (a clear need.. but should be a better head liner) Gimenez SS as the heir apparent to Lindor at SS..(five years of control) Matt Allan is a fine young SP candidate, perhaps as good as Quantrill with the Tribe right now & lastly, Ryley Gilliam is roster fodder and a little guy.. (hard pass on him: perhaps replaced with Alexander Ramirez, a 17 year old that is a long way off, but has some nascent skills to consider)

If anything is going to happen with Lindor.. it needs to happen quickly after the conclusion of the World Series.... if not.. then don't count on any huge changes..

thoughts?>.
 
Somebody named "Natedog" suggested the following Indians/Mets trade:

Mets get: Francisco Lindor
Indians get: Brandon Nimmo (OF), Andres Gimenez (SS), Matthew Allan (RHP), Ryley Gilliam (RHP)

On the face of this deal.. Lindor for two years of Nimmo (a clear need.. but should be a better head liner) Gimenez SS as the heir apparent to Lindor at SS..(five years of control) Matt Allan is a fine young SP candidate, perhaps as good as Quantrill with the Tribe right now & lastly, Ryley Gilliam is roster fodder and a little guy.. (hard pass on him: perhaps replaced with Alexander Ramirez, a 17 year old that is a long way off, but has some nascent skills to consider)

If anything is going to happen with Lindor.. it needs to happen quickly after the conclusion of the World Series.... if not.. then don't count on any huge changes..

thoughts?>.

I think the Mets are the best candidate to go for Lindor actually. I think the heir apparent to Lindor will be Arias to be honest, and I am not against Gimenez, I just dont think his numbers say MLB starter. He has good speed, plus a solid defense, but he doesn't take walks and doesn't put up the slg%/extra base numbers either. I feel he is more an Erick Gonzalez type, but thats just my opinion.

Now who I would get, if I am basing it off of Nimmo (who is going to get 3ish mil in 21), I would also look at getting C Ali Sanchez (allows you to move Hedges if need be), SS Gimenez or Mauricio, RHP Matt Allan and RHP Josh Wolf or Cornielly. I am not sure, but essentially I am stating,.One of their top SS prospects, their top pitching prospect, a lower catching prospect, and another pitching prospect.
 
I think the Mets are the best candidate to go for Lindor actually. I think the heir apparent to Lindor will be Arias to be honest, and I am not against Gimenez, I just dont think his numbers say MLB starter. He has good speed, plus a solid defense, but he doesn't take walks and doesn't put up the slg%/extra base numbers either. I feel he is more an Erick Gonzalez type, but thats just my opinion.

Now who I would get, if I am basing it off of Nimmo (who is going to get 3ish mil in 21), I would also look at getting C Ali Sanchez (allows you to move Hedges if need be), SS Gimenez or Mauricio, RHP Matt Allan and RHP Josh Wolf or Cornielly. I am not sure, but essentially I am stating,.One of their top SS prospects, their top pitching prospect, a lower catching prospect, and another pitching prospect.
can't imagine the Indians will take any salary back (other than major league min) at all
 
Somebody named "Natedog" suggested the following Indians/Mets trade:

Mets get: Francisco Lindor
Indians get: Brandon Nimmo (OF), Andres Gimenez (SS), Matthew Allan (RHP), Ryley Gilliam (RHP)

On the face of this deal.. Lindor for two years of Nimmo (a clear need.. but should be a better head liner) Gimenez SS as the heir apparent to Lindor at SS..(five years of control) Matt Allan is a fine young SP candidate, perhaps as good as Quantrill with the Tribe right now & lastly, Ryley Gilliam is roster fodder and a little guy.. (hard pass on him: perhaps replaced with Alexander Ramirez, a 17 year old that is a long way off, but has some nascent skills to consider)

If anything is going to happen with Lindor.. it needs to happen quickly after the conclusion of the World Series.... if not.. then don't count on any huge changes..

thoughts?>.
I've been assuming the Lindor deal would occur during the virtual gm meetings? why is it important to get it done right after the ws?
 
can't imagine the Indians will take any salary back (other than major league min) at all

I can see like Nimmo's 3-4 maybe (then cutting DeShields contract), but greater than that unless its a legit all star signed long term, I just cannot see anything significant happening either. Honestly we are going to add a veteran or two on a low cost contract so thats not unreasonable. We cannot keep winning if we don't add some veteran talent to the club. My guess is our payroll in 21 will be around 60 mil so we will have 6-10 to actually play with if we cut Hand, Santana and trade Lindor.
 
I've been assuming the Lindor deal would occur during the virtual gm meetings? why is it important to get it done right after the ws?
Early rather than later.. It's just a hunch, but, if there are five other teams with quality SS's entering their final club controlled year plus two or three what I'll refer as ML quality SS's.. the GM's will develop wandering eyes (looking at other opportunities) that will creat a resistance to change or cheapness..

At the end of the day.. the Indians may keep Lindor up to the trading deadline and possibly through the end of the season instead of getting less than the value CLEFO places on Franky..

We'll see..
 
Early rather than later.. It's just a hunch, but, if there are five other teams with quality SS's entering their final club controlled year plus two or three what I'll refer as ML quality SS's.. the GM's will develop wandering eyes (looking at other opportunities) that will creat a resistance to change or cheapness..

At the end of the day.. the Indians may keep Lindor up to the trading deadline and possibly through the end of the season instead of getting less than the value CLEFO places on Franky..

We'll see..

Personally if we dont trade Lindor before the spring training start, I think he is walking as a free agent unless we are out of contention by the trade deadline. We have a good enough starting rotation to keep us in the wild card race so its going to be very hard to merit trading from a position of no depth if we are in a pennant race. In my mind, we need to either have him the whole season or trade him before spring starts. I dont want to wait and see if we trade him, which if he's a team leader, that could put a lot on his mind as well.
 
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