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2020-21 Offseason Discussion

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
Criznit said:
Calm down... Your perception is likely the issue..

I'm not the one calling it the "worst kept secret in baseball". I will wait for the investigation of course and just like you, decide how fucked it really is. But right now, not a fan of Terry. Not a fan of the FO. This fucking franchise needs a facelift, that's my opinion and not sorry that grinds your gears...
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I'm personally waiting for the actual info to come up and honestly I hope they prove Francona and the FO is innocent since it wouldn't be good to lose those guys since they are very good baseball minds.
 
Can we trade Terry Francona?

Alright - chill out. Bummer non-baseball day, but team is looking good and Frankie Lindor gave me a laugh.. That little shit.
 
What is it that tickled your funny bone from Frankie?...
 
I’m bowing out of this conversation, have a bit of work to get through.

I want to be clear, I’m not “defending” anything. Think I’ve made that clear, Callaway’s situation is just a drop in the pond for sexual harassment revolving around sport and it’s something I really hope goes away. Anyone caught up in the situation, regardless of intent, is forever tainted by it.

The Indians will be involved in the MLB investigation on the matter and have been willingly participating. Hope we find more out, one way or the other, more so where the truth lies. But I trust the hands that feed me and what they’ve told me.
 
Criznit said:
Calm down... Your perception is likely the issue..

I'm not the one calling it the "worst kept secret in the organization". I will wait for the investigation of course and just like you, decide how fucked it really is. But right now, not a fan of Terry. Not a fan of the FO. This fucking franchise needs a facelift, that's my opinion and not sorry that grinds your gears...

All I did was read some free articles, and all of them make sure to mention what seems even more alarming to me. That his behavior was known and tolerated.

From MLBTradeRumors:

Callaway himself was contacted for a quote on the story, wherein he acknowledged multiple “infidelities” but called much of the reporting around his actions “inaccurate” and pushed back against the idea that he has ever “[used] his position to harass or pressure a woman.”

The Athletic report should be read in its entirety in order to fully grasp not only the alarming and inappropriate nature of Callaway’s alleged behavior but also the mounting number of troubling indications that many around him were, to varying degrees, aware of the issue.
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If I was any more calm I'd be asleep.

You mean that everything we read is fact? Nobody has ever been wrongly accused publicly? A story like this wouldn't benefit some outside the organization or a writer putting it "out there"?
 
Criznit said:
I'm not the one calling it the "worst kept secret in the organization". I will wait for the investigation of course and just like you, decide how fucked it really is. But right now, not a fan of Terry. Not a fan of the FO. This fucking franchise needs a facelift, that's my opinion and not sorry that grinds your gears...
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I 100% agree that I'm concerned with what they knew/didn't know and I'm certainly not an anti-media type, but there's a reason why this is buried in the 45th paragraph of the article after all of the rumors and speculation:

"None of the women who interacted with Callaway during his time in Cleveland reported these interactions through any official channels."
 
The Human Q-Tip said:
So far, all this discussion has been fine. I'd just ask that everyone strive to make their points without saying shit that could ignite something. It's been nice to be the invisible moderator for awhile.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
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I grew up an Anglo in Puerto Rico when Roberto Clemente was called "Bob" in the states. Puerto Ricans universally considered this disrespectful and dismissive, even if unintentional. I instinctively knew never to call Francisco "Frankie" and never did, ever. I cringed whenever I saw it used, here or anywhere.

I say this as a critic of the way Francisco's carefully cultivated his image, the coy way he courted fans while undermining the organization, and the casual way he accepted superstar status without the superstar accomplishments or responsibility. But while he was always "Francisco" to me (I secondarily called him "disappointment"), if "Frankie" bothered him, no one was in better position to change what he was called than Lindor. That he failed to educate the broader community to the importance of his real name is largely his failure...he had the platform, he had the personality, he had us in the palm of his hand.

Hell, all it took for Joey to become Albert was a glare. Couldn't Mr. Smile have changed our behavior as quickly?
 
Ray Ratto is an entertaining writer. He crowned my team as the worst franchise in sports.

(And he did it without resorting to puffed-up outrage like Adam "Tha Bull" Gerstenhaber)

Because this particular crown changes heads so often, the teams that hold it usually take consultants’ advice, which is generally to let the outrage die down while doing as little as possible to remedy the cause. This is because, as those PR professionals like to tell their clients, something worse will invariably come along to hijack the news cycle soon enough. This is how bad behavior is dealt with—not with curative and enduring actions for the good, but by waiting for a quick respray job and the inevitability that someone else will do something worse.
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WhoAzcue said:
I grew up an Anglo in Puerto Rico when Roberto Clemente was called "Bob" in the states. Puerto Ricans universally considered this disrespectful and dismissive, even if unintentional. I instinctively knew never to call Francisco "Frankie" and never did, ever. I cringed whenever I saw it used, here or anywhere.
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Thanks for the perspective. That’s all that needs to be said. Also, to understand the NY/Italian perspective that it’s a term of friendliness if they don’t understand your point first. I can see a 20 year old rookie not wanting to speak out, feeling overwhelmed, just like a woman speaking out against a pitching coach. Yet, by 22-23 and his stardom power, Lindor just needed to have a 2 minute pre-interview conversation with a guy like Hamilton to clear the air before shaming others with the term lazy.

Yet, now let’s focus on ours guys like Gimenez.
 
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petes999 said:
Thanks for the perspective. That’s all that needs to be said. Also, to understand the NY/Italian perspective that it’s a term of friendliness if they don’t understand your point first. I can see a 20 year old rookie not wanting to speak out, feeling overwhelmed, just like a woman speaking out against a pitching coach. Yet, by 22-23 and his stardom power, Lindor just needed to have a 2 minute pre-interview conversation with a guy like Hamilton to clear the air before shaming others with the term lazy.

Yet, now let’s focus on ours guys like Gimenez.
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One of these things is not like the other.
 
BMAN said:
One of these things is not like the other.
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Yep, they are totally different. Yet, in the end, we need to put ourselves in other people's shoes to understand better. That's what I like about Who explanation about PR culture.

I was just trying to correlate, why some people don't speak up whether it be a 20 year old rookie w his name which seems trivial when being compared to a woman being sent images by a pitching coach or verbally denigrated whether a man or woman.
 
WhoAzcue said:
They traded Jose Ramirez? When? To whom?

Oh, you mean Corey Kluber...so, you're not past that yet? I get it. It is hard to see him in a Yankees uniform...
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No need to be condescending to people being upset over a HOF talent being dealt away in Lindor. Yes, we know he wasn't going to sign here. Yes, we know he was just saying the right things while here. Yes, we know the fans here who kept preaching that Frankie would indeed sign and really wanted to be here were peddlers of false hope and spreading a false narrative. Those of us with half a brain knew he has had one foot out the door for a few years. But fans are allowed to be upset that a player like that is gone. And to be even more upset at the return. It's ok. Both can exist at once. Hopefully they change their tune when Gave Arias or one of these other kids come up. In a small market like Cleveland it's next man up.
 
WhoAzcue said:
I grew up an Anglo in Puerto Rico when Roberto Clemente was called "Bob" in the states. Puerto Ricans universally considered this disrespectful and dismissive, even if unintentional. I instinctively knew never to call Francisco "Frankie" and never did, ever. I cringed whenever I saw it used, here or anywhere.

I say this as a critic of the way Francisco's carefully cultivated his image, the coy way he courted fans while undermining the organization, and the casual way he accepted superstar status without the superstar accomplishments or responsibility. But while he was always "Francisco" to me (I secondarily called him "disappointment"), if "Frankie" bothered him, no one was in better position to change what he was called than Lindor. That he failed to educate the broader community to the importance of his real name is largely his failure...he had the platform, he had the personality, he had us in the palm of his hand.

Hell, all it took for Joey to become Albert was a glare. Couldn't Mr. Smile have changed our behavior as quickly?
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I don't have an issue with him being upset at being called Frankie and you bring up very valid points why it would bother him. It's his right, we should call him what he wants to be called, period . But that's my issue here- if he indeed had a problem, he had only say to the guy handling his daily ball scrubbing 'its Francisco, not Franky' and it would have been done. By the next day, Hamilton would have gone on a 10 minute rant about how beautiful Francisco is and everyone should call him that. But he didn't. Instead we get this passive aggressive bullshit 4 fucking years later about how 'they we're just lazy'... No, you were lazy. Just tell Andre Knott to please call you Francisco one time. But he didn't. He can go to hell at this point.
 
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