Pitching

This bullpen, within the next 3 years, will set the MLB record for total Ks by a bullpen and total WAR by a bullpen. 100% believe that.

I think Bieber will again be a front runner for Cy Young. He's just that damn good. I look for Plesac to regress slightly. but he should grade out as excellent. I don't think Civale will do any better than a 4.0 ERA As prisoner of the moment. I love what Allen can bring. Anyone else scares me. Mac and Quantril have to get a lot better. I did not think Cookie was washed up as many have said. To summarize, I think the rotational be be a lot less than the numbers put up last season. Hope I'm wrong.

The bullpen I think will be better this year and rank in the top 3 in all of baseball. Stephan has great stuff and a huge addition. Getting rid of Cimber and Plutko helps a lot. If Shaw pitches the way he did in his first 3 seasons with the tribe, the bullpen probably would be the best in baseball. I have my doubts about that. Karinchak needs to be coached up somehow to get his control where it needs to be. Way too many walks per nine innings.

I get criticized for saying it, but Nelsen and Sandlin are major league ready studs and it's a shame they won't be here...at ;least for now.

thestatman said:

I think Bieber will again be a front runner for Cy Young. He's just that damn good. I look for Plesac to regress slightly. but he should grade out as excellent. I don't think Civale will do any better than a 4.0 ERA As prisoner of the moment. I love what Allen can bring. Anyone else scares me. Mac and Quantril have to get a lot better. I did not think Cookie was washed up as many have said. To summarize, I think the rotational be be a lot less than the numbers put up last season. Hope I'm wrong.

The bullpen I think will be better this year and rank in the top 3 in all of baseball. Stephan has great stuff and a huge addition. Getting rid of Cimber and Plutko helps a lot. If Shaw pitches the way he did in his first 3 seasons with the tribe, the bullpen probably would be the best in baseball. I have my doubts about that. Karinchak needs to be coached up somehow to get his control where it needs to be. Way too many walks per nine innings.

I get criticized for saying it, but Nelsen and Sandlin are major league ready studs and it's a shame they won't be here...at ;least for now.

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No one disagrees about Nelson and Sandlin to be honest...

sportscoach said:

No one disagrees about Nelson and Sandlin to be honest...

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lol. Yes they do. Not gonna name the posters. Their take is that if Tito don't want them here than they don't belong.

McKenzie is the guy that concerns me. This spring he's allowed 25 hits and 12 walks in 19.1 innings for a WHIP of 1.91. You can't be succesful putting two runners on base per inning. His ERA is 6.98.

Last year in his first three starts he allowed 3 earned runs. In his last three starts he allowed 9 earned runs in 13.1 innings. He's a skinny, injury prone right-hander who throws 91-92. Yeah, I know, he's so tall and his arms are so long that his release point is closer to the plate so it makes the fastball "play up". Well, he's averaging 7.0 K's per nine this spring so I'm not convinced.

He's not a power pitcher; he's a finesse pitcher who needs to effectively change speeds and locations and hit the edges consistently. Seven home runs in 19.1 innings this spring is not very encouraging. But Plesac has also given up seven dingers in fewer innings so maybe it's the wind and the dry air combined with pitchers working on pitches and not working on getting batters out.

thestatman said:

lol. Yes they do. Not gonna name the posters. Their take is that if Tito don't want them here than they don't belong.

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Umm... The posters want Nelson and Sandlin in Cleveland, their isnt anyone who doesn't... The problem is Nelson didn't win the job (it feels like) and Sandlin isnt on the 40 man roster this season since he didnt need to be protected, so by default he is stuck in the minors (which is something almost every single team would do sadly).

sportscoach said:

Umm... The posters want Nelson and Sandlin in Cleveland, their isnt anyone who doesn't... The problem is Nelson didn't win the job (it feels like) and Sandlin isnt on the 40 man roster this season since he didnt need to be protected, so by default he is stuck in the minors (which is something almost every single team would do sadly).

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AZ said I should be permanently banned for claiming that Sandlin and Nelsen should be on the team. He amazingly claimed that winning division 1 NCAA pitcher of the year (Sandlin) is a worthless credential and that Nelsen's minor ;league numbers that virtually mirrored those of Karinchek have no business in factoring in who makes the team. He wasn't the only one.

But those 2 roster omissions pale in comparison to the other 2 decisions that will hurt this team. Gamil over Johnson and Bauers over Bradley is about as bizarre as it gets.

For those that say that changes will be made in 6 weeks or so, I say the games in April and May also count in the standings.

Why is it that the Indians had no problem in unloading the unproductive Plutko but feel the need to keep a career 214 hitter (900 ml at bats) over a guy who hit 262 with 36 home runs in triple A in 2019?

Bauers out of options? Ummm...OK. Bad players get released all the time in baseball.

It's not just a matter of playing their best players. It's a matter of parking the most fannies in a ball park. I will not go to a tribe game to watch the lousy center fielder play over Johnson or the pathetic Bauers play over Bobby Bradley. And literally thousands of die hard Indians fans have the same take as me. Right now maximizing attendance and peaking fan interest should be a top priority. I'll go to Akron for my baseball entertainment.

thestatman said:

AZ said I should be permanently banned for claiming that Sandlin and Nelsen should be on the team. He amazingly claimed that winning division 1 NCAA pitcher of the year (Sandlin) is a worthless credential and that Nelsen's minor ;league numbers that virtually mirrored those of Karinchek have no business in factoring in who makes the team. He wasn't the only one.

But those 2 roster omissions pale in comparison to the other 2 decisions that will hurt this team. Gamil over Johnson and Bauers over Bradley is about as bizarre as it gets.

For those that say that changes will be made in 6 weeks or so, I say the games in April and May also count in the standings.

Why is it that the Indians had no problem in unloading the unproductive Plutko but feel the need to keep a career 214 hitter (900 ml at bats) over a guy who hit 262 with 36 home runs in triple A in 2019?

Bauers out of options? Ummm...OK. Bad players get released all the time in baseball.

It's not just a matter of playing their best players. It's a matter of parking the most fannies in a ball park. I will not go to a tribe game to watch the lousy center fielder play over Johnson or the pathetic Bauers play over Bobby Bradley. Right now maximizing attendance and peaking fan interest should be a top priority. I'll go to Akron for my baseball entertainment.

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AZ wants them on the team actually, but knows they arent going to be because of many of the reasons why they arent. I dont have much love for AZ, but he is not often wrong about things when it comes to baseball lol

Johnson wouldnt be on the roster over Gamil, since Gamil is the bench guy. They decided to keep Amed and Naylor over Johnson, doesnt mean I agree but thats what they decided.

Bradley over Bauers in my mind is a huge mistake, but we will see in due time.

thestatman said:

AZ said I should be permanently banned for claiming that Sandlin and Nelsen should be on the team. He amazingly claimed that winning division 1 NCAA pitcher of the year (Sandlin) is a worthless credential and that Nelsen's minor ;league numbers that virtually mirrored those of Karinchek have no business in factoring in who makes the team. He wasn't the only one.

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Nope.

I said you should be permanently banned for purposely misstating arguments like this, constantly.

Then showed you the previous times you'd been banned, after you denied being banned.

thestatman said:

It's not just a matter of playing their best players. It's a matter of parking the most fannies in a ball park. I will not go to a tribe game to watch the lousy center fielder play over Johnson or the pathetic Bauers play over Bobby Bradley. And literally thousands of die hard Indians fans have the same take as me. Right now maximizing attendance and peaking fan interest should be a top priority. I'll go to Akron for my baseball entertainment.

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I am so sick of this hearing this garbage.

Cleveland showed its true colors in 2017.

We were coming off the 2016 World Series, had two MVP-caliber position players in Jose and Lindor, we had one of the greatest pitching staffs in the history of baseball, the best record in the American League, and we went on the longest win streak in the history of baseball, in the middle of summer with beautiful weather, and we still weren't selling out every game.

You had the absolute perfect storm and fans didn't show up.

It's clear that nothing the team does will change that--but some people continue to point at anything they don't like and say "See! That's why I'm not going!"

The truth is, no matter what the team does, you were never going to begin with.

Out of the Rafters at the Q said:

I am so sick of this hearing this garbage.

Cleveland showed its true colors in 2017.

We were coming off the 2016 World Series, had two MVP-caliber position players in Jose and Lindor, we had one of the greatest pitching staffs in the history of baseball, the best record in the American League, and we went on the longest win streak in the history of baseball, in the middle of summer with beautiful weather, and we still weren't selling out every game.

You had the absolute perfect storm and fans didn't show up.

It's clear that nothing the team does will change that--but some people continue to point at anything they don't like and say "See! That's why I'm not going!"

The truth is, no matter what the team does, you were never going to begin with.

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Too many people enjoy the "schism" between team and fans to really get past it...change of owner, even winning a WS are probably just blips. I doubt it fills the seats for more than a short interval
Baseball is a long term project in a short term world...especially in CLE. The team can do better at communication/marketing to the casual fan but you have to want to be part of it in the end.

Wham with the Right Hand said:

McKenzie is the guy that concerns me. This spring he's allowed 25 hits and 12 walks in 19.1 innings for a WHIP of 1.91. You can't be succesful putting two runners on base per inning. His ERA is 6.98.

Last year in his first three starts he allowed 3 earned runs. In his last three starts he allowed 9 earned runs in 13.1 innings. He's a skinny, injury prone right-hander who throws 91-92. Yeah, I know, he's so tall and his arms are so long that his release point is closer to the plate so it makes the fastball "play up". Well, he's averaging 7.0 K's per nine this spring so I'm not convinced.

He's not a power pitcher; he's a finesse pitcher who needs to effectively change speeds and locations and hit the edges consistently. Seven home runs in 19.1 innings this spring is not very encouraging. But Plesac has also given up seven dingers in fewer innings so maybe it's the wind and the dry air combined with pitchers working on pitches and not working on getting batters out.

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Wham I think your concerns are legitimate, but not because of this ST. I think Triston is advanced at his age in regards to being a pitcher. He understands his limits and his capabilities along with being mature for his age. My biggest concern with him is physicality and hopefully that fades with time. If they were to trade another SP(I'm not suggesting they do), my guess is it would be McKenzie because of that risk.

I have to say that I've been incredibly impressed with Triston's pitchability and demeanor. He quickly became one of my favorites and I believe he will continue to get better if he can remain healthy.

CDAV45 said:

Wham I think your concerns are legitimate, but not because of this ST. I think Triston is advanced at his age in regards to being a pitcher. He understands his limits and his capabilities along with being mature for his age. My biggest concern with him is physicality and hopefully that fades with time. If they were to trade another SP(I'm not suggesting they do), my guess is it would be McKenzie because of that risk.

I have to say that I've been incredibly impressed with Triston's pitchability and demeanor. He quickly became one of my favorites and I believe he will continue to get better if he can remain healthy.

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He can't get any muscle tears or injuries.. he doesn't have any...

Out of the Rafters at the Q said:

I am so sick of this hearing this garbage.

Cleveland showed its true colors in 2017.

We were coming off the 2016 World Series, had two MVP-caliber position players in Jose and Lindor, we had one of the greatest pitching staffs in the history of baseball, the best record in the American League, and we went on the longest win streak in the history of baseball, in the middle of summer with beautiful weather, and we still weren't selling out every game.

You had the absolute perfect storm and fans didn't show up.

It's clear that nothing the team does will change that--but some people continue to point at anything they don't like and say "See! That's why I'm not going!"

The truth is, no matter what the team does, you were never going to begin with.

Click to expand...

Hard to argue with any of that Q. What you say is pretty much fact, but what will it take to get some butts back in the seats? I happen to think the offenses of the 90's is what brought most of the casual fans to the ballpark, but that's just what I think. I have no hard evidence, but I firmly believe that these very good pitching staffs and mild offenses will never be the remedy. It's amazing and disappointing to see that 455 sign and the lack of attendance now.

CDAV45 said:

Hard to argue with any of that Q. What you say is pretty much fact, but what will it take to get some butts back in the seats? I happen to think the offenses of the 90's is what brought most of the casual fans to the ballpark, but that's just what I think. I have no hard evidence, but I firmly believe that these very good pitching staffs and mild offenses will never be the remedy. It's amazing and disappointing to see that 455 sign and the lack of attendance now.

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There's another thread in this section where we discussed the Dolans and attendance. If you find it, feel free to bump it.

I think the big thing that is going to drive attendance is bringing more people downtown. You can't count on the suburban family to drive attendance anymore, but there are few things I enjoyed more in life than walking over to Progressive Field for a game.

The Indians should work with partners to help increase the residential living spaces downtown, and then also help work with groups that are trying to push Cleveland towards public transportation.