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DCTribefan said:
Yikes! Didn’t TMac used to have 95+ velo a few years back?
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No, and he never has been. Fans are taking his 1st few starts at the MLB level as what he is/has been as a pro. Gunned the kid from High A to AA before and after the back problems and he never touched 95 a single time I watched him pitch. His 1st few MLB games were an absolute anomaly.

Dude has lived 89-93 as a pro. When you’re tall and lanky your mechanics have to be fully in synch or you’ll see velo variances and control problems, and the control problems are what he is dealing with right now. He needs to dial in his mechanics cause the stuff has been good. 2nd most Ks in the starting rotation with the 2nd fewest innings pitched.

When you’re 6’5 velocity is a luxury you don’t need to be effective. Every pitch gains added unseen velocity because the release point is closer to the plate.

Everyone needs to relax, this is still the 2nd most naturally gifted starter in our rotation.
 
BimboColesHair said:
Dude has lived 89-93 as a pro. When you’re tall and lanky your mechanics have to be fully in synch or you’ll see velo variances and control problems, and the control problems are what he is dealing with right now.
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This is exactly what I've heard from anyone who has watched him closely in the minors. His velo will vary from start to start, but it's not because of arm health, but mechanics. He's sneaky fast, not fast-fast, and we just have to accept variance as he continues refinement. I'm much more concerned by durability than I am by his arsenal. Kid is heady, mature, and unafraid, and that helps fill in when he doesn't have his best stuff or control. Whatever we get from him I'm going to appreciate. I'm not going to have low or high expectations, because he's a bit of an oddity. He's a box of chocolates. And most chocolates are pretty tasty.
 
BimboColesHair said:
No, and he never has been. Fans are taking his 1st few starts at the MLB level as what he is/has been as a pro. Gunned the kid from High A to AA before and after the back problems and he never touched 95 a single time I watched him pitch. His 1st few MLB games were an absolute anomaly.

Dude has lived 89-93 as a pro. When you’re tall and lanky your mechanics have to be fully in synch or you’ll see velo variances and control problems, and the control problems are what he is dealing with right now. He needs to dial in his mechanics cause the stuff has been good. 2nd most Ks in the starting rotation with the 2nd fewest innings pitched.

When you’re 6’5 velocity is a luxury you don’t need to be effective. Every pitch gains added unseen velocity because the release point is closer to the plate.

Everyone needs to relax, this is still the 2nd most naturally gifted starter in our rotation.
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Well Bimbo, you and I don't usually cross paths, but it looks like we might here.

Fixing control problems at less than max velocity will always keep you at less than max. Because the minute you dial it up and you miss, the first thought is I better dial it back. Not to dissimilar to guys coming back from injury and at the first sign of any sense of something different in the injured area, the body compensates to protect it.

So we will see how this works out, and it might work out well... however it could work out less than ooptimum. Because what happens when he has control problems at a lesser velocity - dial it back more ?

Where does it stop - at 89, 87, 85, 84 ....
 
From watching him, my whole point is he isn't a front of the rotation starter if that is what he has got. And from a draft perspective, you would hope for more than BOR starter from a draft pick that high.

All things can change obviously, but my first impression wasn't great. But then again WTF do I know. So we will see where it goes
 
daddywags said:
Solid 4th starter in a top rotation is fine. Not sure why he's either a 1-2 or a bust? 42nd pick in the draft I'll take that all day.
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Well we will see where it goes and if the concensus that a BOR starter is enough. I suspect on this board at least ... not so much.
 
A 4th starter in a top rotation is fine, but it makes a guy wonder why Moss isn't afforded that same opportunity. I'm curious to see what he can, or can't do. Hell, the same can be said for Morgan who is said to be hitting 92 on the gun.
 
jup said:
Well Bimbo, you and I don't usually cross paths, but it looks like we might here.

Fixing control problems at less than max velocity will always keep you at less than max. Because the minute you dial it up and you miss, the first thought is I better dial it back. Not to dissimilar to guys coming back from injury and at the first sign of any sense of something different in the injured area, the body compensates to protect it.

So we will see how this works out, and it might work out well... however it could work out less than ooptimum. Because what happens when he has control problems at a lesser velocity - dial it back more ?

Where does it stop - at 89, 87, 85, 84 ....
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It doesn’t go lower...

Guy tweaked his mechanics this offseason to avoid his balky back issues he’s been dealing with for a few years and found a path that helps him avoid it and remain as effective with the mechanics that got him drafted and turned him into a top prospect.

Problem is his length and height make it hard to repeat mechanics soundly, which is by far the most important aspect of pitching. He is trying to fix that on the fly and has been since the Spring. And he’ll get it reigned in, I trust that.

On top of that he was asked to change how he throws his slider and his fastball by the front office. A lot of changes in one off season for the young man.

Also. Stop putting a “4th starter, back of the rotation” cap on a 23 year old that skipped AAA entirely and is 46 IP into his MLB career. 46 IP in he owns a 3.33 ERA and is K’ing almost 12 batters per 9. We’re acting like he’s getting shelled here.

His ceiling is higher than anyone not named Bieber in our current rotation, and it’s not even close.
 
Your
BimboColesHair said:
It doesn’t go lower...

Guy tweaked his mechanics this offseason to avoid his balky back issues he’s been dealing with for a few years and found a path that helps him avoid it and remain as effective with the mechanics that got him drafted and turned him into a top prospect.

Problem is his length and height make it hard to repeat mechanics soundly, which is by far the most important aspect of pitching. He is trying to fix that on the fly and has been since the Spring. And he’ll get it reigned in, I trust that.

On top of that he was asked to change how he throws his slider and his fastball by the front office. A lot of changes in one off season for the young man.

Also. Stop putting a “4th starter, back of the rotation” cap on a 23 year old that skipped AAA entirely and is 46 IP into his MLB career. 46 IP in he owns a 3.33 ERA and is K’ing almost 12 batters per 9. We’re acting like he’s getting shelled here.

His ceiling is higher than anyone not named Bieber in our current rotation, and it’s not even close.
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Your opinion.

But don't tell me to STOP - I don't try to tell you that or anyone else on the board. What they have to say is their opinion and is as valid as mine.

He may turn out to be a FOR, no telling unless your crystal ball is that good. But he could be a BOR also and that is what I saw yesterday.

League doesn't have a fix on him yet. Enjoy the honeymoon period Tmac. Isn't going to last forever
 
jup said:
Your

Your opinion.

But don't tell me to STOP - I don't try to tell you that or anyone else on the board. What they have to say is their opinion and is as valid as mine.

He may turn out to be a FOR, no telling unless your crystal ball is that good. But he could be a BOR also and that is what I saw yesterday.

League doesn't have a fix on him yet. Enjoy the honeymoon period Tmac. Isn't going to last forever
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I saw a kid facing the highest scoring offense to this point in the season in a hitter friendly ballpark struggle with his control and still go 5 innings of 1 run ball cause he has special strikeout stuff.

If you go into his games expecting a flamethrower bringing it 95+ like he was last year that had fans all excited, you’re going to have a bad time. That’s not who he is.

In no way did his performance yesterday lead me to “back of the rotation guy”. Quite the opposite. Once he dials in his mechanics, which he will, he’s going to be really good...and he’s already been real good to this point, book on him or no book on him.
 
I see, you can sell him as a FOR and it is just fine, but I can't comment differently.

The truth being known neither of us know and I can accept your opinion without telling you TO STOP, show some respect
 
jup said:
From watching him, my whole point is he isn't a front of the rotation starter if that is what he has got. And from a draft perspective, you would hope for more than BOR starter from a draft pick that high.

All things can change obviously, but my first impression wasn't great. But then again WTF do I know. So we will see where it goes
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@jup the bolded could certainly be taken as declarative--not an opinion.

I have no dog in this race, but I'm guessing that might be why you got such a strong reaction.
 
jup said:
Well Bimbo, you and I don't usually cross paths, but it looks like we might here.

Fixing control problems at less than max velocity will always keep you at less than max. Because the minute you dial it up and you miss, the first thought is I better dial it back. Not to dissimilar to guys coming back from injury and at the first sign of any sense of something different in the injured area, the body compensates to protect it.

So we will see how this works out, and it might work out well... however it could work out less than ooptimum. Because what happens when he has control problems at a lesser velocity - dial it back more ?

Where does it stop - at 89, 87, 85, 84 ....
Click to expand...
Wouldn’t the idea be to learn how to repeat the mechanics at less than full speed because that is easier and build up to max effort? I’m a golfer, and if you ever get a lesson, any change that the instructor wants you to implement is first done at half or 3 quarter speed to build muscle memory and comfort before trying to hit the ball 300 yards.
 
mopete12 said:
Wouldn’t the idea be to learn how to repeat the mechanics at less than full speed because that is easier and build up to max effort? I’m a golfer, and if you ever get a lesson, any change that the instructor wants you to implement is first done at half or 3 quarter speed to build muscle memory and comfort before trying to hit the ball 300 yards.
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Not how it works in pitching.

Sure you work on your mechanics at various levels of intent when your not on the mound.. But making throwing hard subject to throwing strikes only gets you slow strikes.

You want premium velocity and strikes, you have to have an intent to throw the ball hard as you can. And that is a mindset that is developed. Not one that develops from making it contingent on strikes. You are never going to throw 100% strikes.
 
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