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Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

What Resolves First?

  • Collin Sexton's Restricted Free Agency

    Votes: 19 38.8%
  • Baker Mayfield's Tenure with the Browns

    Votes: 30 61.2%

  • Total voters
    49
  • Poll closed .
Yep, get rid of Love for a potentially similar, slightly more available younger version. Get rid of Love because he's a net negative for you since LeBron left (and while he James was here, Kevin was often times net neutral). Even when he's going he's pouting and disinterested. I think Zingas could be a buy low guy, too, if he finds himself playing in an offense that moves the ball well.
And I don't think Collin is actually your best player. I think he's your best scorer but at the cost of winning basketball. His presence keeps the team from being honest with themselves on actual needs: play makers who share the ball, play defense and hit the open 3 at the wing, perimeter shooting and scoring off the bench. I also don't think he's looked at around the league like the asset you think he is.
IMO, The Cavs are forcing us to sit through an offense based on Ben Gordon or Monte Ellis while we have D-Rose/Steph Curry out there. Ben and Monte are good, but they were ultimately incongruous w/Rose or Steph.
I know you all don't believe me. You can insist that we are about to see Collin turn into next-Donovan Mitchell next year. Personally I think we missed the boat not bringing him off the bench from the start, having him earn minutes via smart basketball plays vs scoring. But Cavs gotta Cav.
dude, let's remove names for a little bit ok?

you have a young player that is the best on your team, you have an over the hill player that pouts, then you want slightly-younger-slightly-available player to replace your over the hill player.

in a vacuum, you don't sacrifice your young player that happens to be the best on your team just to have the slightly-younger-slightly-available player. you attach 2nd round picks, expiring contracts or other high-value-low-cost assets to that trade, NOT your biggest bargaining chip.
 
lol I am guessing the previous poster is serious when comparing Garland to Steph ? Why do that to yourself ? He is not close to that level of shooter, and probably never will be in the same city, let alone the same ball park. I think if he was he would not be only taking wide open threes, but would be taking clutch contested shots, and making the other team guard him as an actual threat besides a passer.
https://www.basketballnews.com/stor...growth-supplementing-talent-to-take-next-step

I was curious so I looked at them at the same age which was Curry's rookie season. He had a lot more college of course. I'm surprised at how close it is. Yes, Curry shot really well from everywhere. Still, looks pretty similar. Doesn't mean they end up in the same place, but Garland has a different trajectory based on this past year than on his rookie season. Even if Garland ends up a worse shooter, he can still be very dangerous and might end up the better passer. Curry's assist percentage this year was the same as Garlands.


Screenshot 2021-06-10 11.02.34 AM.png
 
dude, let's remove names for a little bit ok?

you have a young player that is the best on your team, you have an over the hill player that pouts, then you want slightly-younger-slightly-available player to replace your over the hill player.

in a vacuum, you don't sacrifice your young player that happens to be the best on your team just to have the slightly-younger-slightly-available player. you attach 2nd round picks, expiring contracts or other high-value-low-cost assets to that trade, NOT your biggest bargaining chip.
I don't think he's your biggest bargaining chip or the best player on your team. I think his style of play is detrimental to actually winning at a high level in the NBA. I don't think there's anything I can say to convince you or vice versa.

Also: I hate having a team full of young players, because it normally means losing. Pick a young guy you are building around, and compliment him accordingly. The Cavs have "collected assets" now, and it's time to shit or get off the pot. IMO, Garland, Allen and Okoro are who I'm building around. I'd love to have Collin as the bench juggernaut, but if I'm honest with myself, I know that that role is not going to work for him given the last few seasons. So, he's a tradable asset because he is a good scorer and is young and is on a rookie scale contract with controls, but he's not my best asset (which is likely Okoro, Garland, Nance and probably the draft pick in the eyes of the NBA).

So, if you take my view of Collin, but you think Zingas is a lost caused (which is surely a reasonable stance, ironic that a few years ago we would have gladly done the KI deal centered around him vs the C's deal we got) who can you trade for that is a fit? I think the Cavs would be better by stressing fit at this point vs asset/upside. If the answer isn't keeping him, what are you getting for him? Maybe Toronto for Siakim along with Prince, Cedi & Windler.. does Toronto entertain that? He'd do great in LA because he'd have to defer to Lebron and AD.. but who wants any of the remaining Lakers? Same with Clips & Leonard and George.. but I'm not dying to add a Morris twin or Beverly.

Anyway, we won't agree. That's fine. I think the Cavs need to make a move with him this offseason to maximize his value. I get that you want to wait and see.
 
I don't think he's your biggest bargaining chip or the best player on your team. I think his style of play is detrimental to actually winning at a high level in the NBA. I don't think there's anything I can say to convince you or vice versa.

Also: I hate having a team full of young players, because it normally means losing. Pick a young guy you are building around, and compliment him accordingly. The Cavs have "collected assets" now, and it's time to shit or get off the pot. IMO, Garland, Allen and Okoro are who I'm building around. I'd love to have Collin as the bench juggernaut, but if I'm honest with myself, I know that that role is not going to work for him given the last few seasons. So, he's a tradable asset because he is a good scorer and is young and is on a rookie scale contract with controls, but he's not my best asset (which is likely Okoro, Garland, Nance and probably the draft pick in the eyes of the NBA).

So, if you take my view of Collin, but you think Zingas is a lost caused (which is surely a reasonable stance, ironic that a few years ago we would have gladly done the KI deal centered around him vs the C's deal we got) who can you trade for that is a fit? I think the Cavs would be better by stressing fit at this point vs asset/upside. If the answer isn't keeping him, what are you getting for him? Maybe Toronto for Siakim along with Prince, Cedi & Windler.. does Toronto entertain that? He'd do great in LA because he'd have to defer to Lebron and AD.. but who wants any of the remaining Lakers? Same with Clips & Leonard and George.. but I'm not dying to add a Morris twin or Beverly.

Anyway, we won't agree. That's fine. I think the Cavs need to make a move with him this offseason to maximize his value. I get that you want to wait and see.
There are arguments on sexton both ways
Sexton has a unbelievable work ethic. Cavs trade him he will add a chip on his shoulder. Combine those two things and he will be an all star for years. He has tenacity. Garland is soft. Go find a true pg with size. And sexton is scoring 2 g.
 
I don't think he's your biggest bargaining chip or the best player on your team. I think his style of play is detrimental to actually winning at a high level in the NBA. I don't think there's anything I can say to convince you or vice versa.

Also: I hate having a team full of young players, because it normally means losing. Pick a young guy you are building around, and compliment him accordingly. The Cavs have "collected assets" now, and it's time to shit or get off the pot. IMO, Garland, Allen and Okoro are who I'm building around. I'd love to have Collin as the bench juggernaut, but if I'm honest with myself, I know that that role is not going to work for him given the last few seasons. So, he's a tradable asset because he is a good scorer and is young and is on a rookie scale contract with controls, but he's not my best asset (which is likely Okoro, Garland, Nance and probably the draft pick in the eyes of the NBA).

So, if you take my view of Collin, but you think Zingas is a lost caused (which is surely a reasonable stance, ironic that a few years ago we would have gladly done the KI deal centered around him vs the C's deal we got) who can you trade for that is a fit? I think the Cavs would be better by stressing fit at this point vs asset/upside. If the answer isn't keeping him, what are you getting for him? Maybe Toronto for Siakim along with Prince, Cedi & Windler.. does Toronto entertain that? He'd do great in LA because he'd have to defer to Lebron and AD.. but who wants any of the remaining Lakers? Same with Clips & Leonard and George.. but I'm not dying to add a Morris twin or Beverly.

Anyway, we won't agree. That's fine. I think the Cavs need to make a move with him this offseason to maximize his value. I get that you want to wait and see.
We can disagree on sexton, but porzingis is an injury prone player that can't even score in double figures every game with the best point guard in the nba right now. He is not worth trading your best scorer for.

If the deal is for someone more consistent and fits the roster better, then by all means.

And in case you haven't noticed, this isn't about sexton. It's about porzingis.
 
We can disagree on sexton, but porzingis is an injury prone player that can't even score in double figures every game with the best point guard in the nba right now. He is not worth trading your best scorer for.

If the deal is for someone more consistent and fits the roster better, then by all means.

And in case you haven't noticed, this isn't about sexton. It's about porzingis.
Isn‘t this the Collin Sexton thread?
 
There are arguments on sexton both ways
Sexton has a unbelievable work ethic. Cavs trade him he will add a chip on his shoulder. Combine those two things and he will be an all star for years. He has tenacity. Garland is soft. Go find a true pg with size. And sexton is scoring 2 g.
I understand that argument as well, maybe it's Suggs in the draft and then you move Garland for someone, which wouldn't be my ideal scenario, but at least it's a picking of a horse.

IMO, I don't think Sexton is close at all to Mitchell in his feel for the game, and anybody you play next to Collin will have to deal with that issue.
We can disagree on sexton, but porzingis is an injury prone player that can't even score in double figures every game with the best point guard in the nba right now. He is not worth trading your best scorer for.

If the deal is for someone more consistent and fits the roster better, then by all means.

And in case you haven't noticed, this isn't about sexton. It's about porzingis.
I understand that, and can totally get behind the "no" to that trade for sure. I just think a trade needs to happen, I also think Sexton as an asset is more limited than people think it is. Could be wrong on that, but I don't think I am.
 
Everything is so dependent on the draft. I can't imagine trading anyone before that shakes out unless Sexton allows you to trade up or something.

I get the feel issue with Sexton, but it is clearly getting better.
 
I understand that argument as well, maybe it's Suggs in the draft and then you move Garland for someone, which wouldn't be my ideal scenario, but at least it's a picking of a horse.

IMO, I don't think Sexton is close at all to Mitchell in his feel for the game, and anybody you play next to Collin will have to deal with that issue.

I understand that, and can totally get behind the "no" to that trade for sure. I just think a trade needs to happen, I also think Sexton as an asset is more limited than people think it is. Could be wrong on that, but I don't think I am.
feel for the game? lol no no no . That argument is doa. Sexton has plenty of feel for the game when he has the rock there buddy, you just don't like players that seem to ice out the team when they are called on to take over games on their own I guess. I think on young teams where they are searching for someone to step up all the time. Sexton is one of the few that has produced consistently. Garland for all his potential as a shooter and dribbling ability is not doing much that special in the flow of the game either, besides overdribbling and tossing some set play lobs or getting trapped on the baseline and losing the ball out of bounds . He did offer a bullet highlight outlet dime to your buddy Sexton who leaked out once this season though smh
 
feel for the game? lol no no no . That argument is doa. Sexton has plenty of feel for the game when he has the rock there buddy, you just don't like players that seem to ice out the team when they are called on to take over games on their own I guess. I think on young teams where they are searching for someone to step up all the time. Sexton is one of the few that has produced consistently. Garland for all his potential as a shooter and dribbling ability is not doing much that special in the flow of the game either, besides overdribbling and tossing some set play lobs or getting trapped on the baseline and losing the ball out of bounds . He did offer a bullet highlight outlet dime to your buddy Sexton who leaked out once this season though smh


I think the whole issue with Sexton is that the fanbase and the media always magnify the Sexton's mistakes while giving Garland and everyone else a pass for the most part. And,then have some that criticize Sexton's game for being ugly while praise Garland for having a smoother game.


Like,I said last week,I have no problem with people criticizing the young core but it seems to me that Sexton gets the most criticism no matter what he does. He could get a quadruple double and people will find a way to criticize him...

I don't understand,why Sexton gets the most ridiculous criticism when he's not the problem.


You have an aging star that's always hurt and when he does plays he checks out most ofvthe time. Matter of fact,this team haven't been healthy since Lebron was here.

You have the backup power forward and point guard that's can't shoot.

Then,you have the bench that gets outscored on most nights by a huge margin.

Somehow,people points the finger at Sexton as the problem when him and Garland were the reason,why we won the 22 games this season...Those two had no help at all.
 
I was curious so I looked at them at the same age which was Curry's rookie season. He had a lot more college of course. I'm surprised at how close it is. Yes, Curry shot really well from everywhere. Still, looks pretty similar. Doesn't mean they end up in the same place, but Garland has a different trajectory based on this past year than on his rookie season. Even if Garland ends up a worse shooter, he can still be very dangerous and might end up the better passer. Curry's assist percentage this year was the same as Garlands.


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You're comparing one guy's rookie year vs. another guy's 2nd year, and even with that massive handicap, Curry was the better player.

The reason why it's important in this instance though is because by the end of his 2nd season Curry had just had a better statistical season than Ellis had ever had up to that point, and he'd been in the league something like another 3 or 4 years.

And, in fact, that Curry season in his 2nd year was basically Ellis' peak.

So it was pretty easy, even at that point, to see that Curry was likely to pan out as a better player than Ellis. He already WAS a better player, and he'd been in the league a lot less time.

We don't have that here.

Darius Garland didn't just put up a season that was already better than anything we've seen from Colin. And Colin's only been in the league one more year


Now maybe this is unfair to Garland because he has way less college seasoning than Curry did....but then there's a lesson in there about maybe thinking about taking players who are ready to perform much earlier in their careers than later.
 
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You're comparing one guy's rookie year vs. another guy's 2nd year, and even with that massive handicap, Curry was the better player.

The reason why it's important in this instance though is because by the end of his 2nd season Curry had just had a better statistical season than Ellis had ever had up to that point, and he'd been in the league something like another 3 or 4 years.

And, in fact, that Curry season in his 2nd year was basically Ellis' peak.

So it was pretty easy, even at that point, to see that Curry was likely to pan out as a better player than Ellis. He already WAS a better player, and he'd been in the league a lot less time.

We don't have that here.

Darius Garland didn't just put up a season that was already better than anything we've seen from Colin. And Colin's only been in the league one more year


Now maybe this is unfair to Garland because he has way less college seasoning than Curry did....but then there's a lesson in there about maybe thinking about taking players who are ready to perform much earlier in their careers than later.

I don't think it is a massive handicap. I think Curry had more experience than Garland at the same age. I also don't think it is strange that the best shooter ever shoots better percentages than Garland. It's an unfair standard to anyone, because who would stack up?

I wasn't aware that Curry was pretty much immediately putting up elite percentages. That is impressive. I also didn't realize he was still 21 after 3 years of college.

Yeah, some people have already said, "Garland is the better player" and I don't think that is the case. If we look at what happened this year, the easiest thing for me to see is that they played much better together this year, and they both improved their games. That doesn't say to me, trade one of them while you can.

They really need more support because when the the team looked competent around them, they looked deadly together and were the best guys on the team.
 
feel for the game? lol no no no . That argument is doa. Sexton has plenty of feel for the game when he has the rock there buddy, you just don't like players that seem to ice out the team when they are called on to take over games on their own I guess. I think on young teams where they are searching for someone to step up all the time. Sexton is one of the few that has produced consistently. Garland for all his potential as a shooter and dribbling ability is not doing much that special in the flow of the game either, besides overdribbling and tossing some set play lobs or getting trapped on the baseline and losing the ball out of bounds . He did offer a bullet highlight outlet dime to your buddy Sexton who leaked out once this season though smh
Actually I agree that Garland overdribbles looking for the pass, while Sexton overdribbles looking for the shot. It's a big reason they aren't a great fit.
His feel is limited to scoring. That's not feel for the game, it's feel for scoring. Understanding what the other 4 guys are doing and going to do and how the defense will react to your movement and your teammates movement is feel for the game. The anticipation of the play just isn't there.
The issue with Collin is that he ice's out his team when he's NOT called on to do so.. it's just what he does and it's going to end up holding back the Cavs from getting over the rebuild hump.
Sexton doesn't feel the weakside of the offense. It's been a struggle since his rookie year. Every time he seems to turn the corner, he reverts back. For all the gaudy numbers, the W/L numbers are basically stagnant with him putting them up.
It's fine. We will see. My guess is we re-sign Collin to a huge extension because we kind of have to now, and then this thread turns into a "how do you dump this contract" thread in 2 years when they've fired Altman and JBB, and Dan Gilbert has put his kid in as President of Basketball Ops. I'll be fine being wrong, but I don't think I will be.
Right now I have Collin as the 6th best asset on the team behind Garland, Okoro, the draft pick, Allen and Nance. Allen will drop after his contract and the pick could drop or rise for obvious reasons. Collin will fall as an asset after the contract extension.
 
Also: I'm not using the Curry/Monte or Rose/Gordon comps as true trajectory of Garland. I am using them as markers where in some ways the one player was not a compliment to the other player and the team needed to pick a horse and move on. Cavs went through this with KI and Waiters too. They should have moved on from Dion way sooner than they did (like on draft night, but whatever). Unfortunately for the Cavs neither Sexton or Garland is an all-world talent (like Curry, Rose-pre injury or KI). Both are good basketball players with some obvious flaws. And it's getting close to time to make a decision on one of them, imo.
 

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