Pitching

Derek said:

Sounds like his LA teammates don’t care for him, but that could just be rumors. I heard nothing but great things about him in Cleveland and Cincy.

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Or it could be the warm and empathetic LA Media.. afterall.. I'm sure Trevor is running his stories he's going to post to his social media outlets by these peer reviewing pals !..





NOT....

Folks think that great pitchers just showed up ten years ago, esp in Cleveland...due to new analytically driven techniques and training...which is hogwash.

The truth is that we don't know if this new pitching revolution is the baseball equivalent to the American Revolution...which changed much of the western world...or is it more like the series of Mexican revolutions that changed nothing.

What we know that pitchers have gotten better, but we have yet to know why. Is it due to increased velocities and spin rates, or is it due to the change in batting, with an emphasis on launch angles, exit velocities, and the abandonment of the two strike approach? Or is it due to highly intelligent defensive shifts?

And what percent of the increase in velocity and spin rates have been due to sticky substances?

Another thing we do know is that elbow injuries have sky rocketed over the last ten years, coinciding with the new wave pitching teachings.

The supporters of New Wave pitching pooh pooh the plethora of medical studies that strongly infer that the pitching revolution has caused the spike in elbow injuries...and cite the very few that disagree. Kinda reminds me of tobacco supported studies that insisted that smoking was not only not a cause of health problems, but actually were beneficial. In any case, there is no way to label the increase of injuries just as New Wave pitching arrived as somehow coincidental.

So what happens to all this great pitching loses its sticky stuff and begins to face batters more intent on making contact? And what happens if shifts are outlawed?
We shall see, but it is unlikely that TJ surgeons are suddenly going to be unemployed.

I believe when the dust settles, New Wave pitching will have improved pitching overall, but only incrementally. But that improvement will not include the pile of elbows it leaves behind.

In re Cleveland and New Wave pitching, the gears were in place for gathering and developing pitchers long before any of us were born. I doubt that there are many franchises that have had more young pitchers develop into truly great ones than Cleveland.

And it was Larry Dolan that on the first day of his ownership declared that the emphasis for the franchise would be pitching development.

Bauer may have speeded up the process, but the Indians were already on there way.

CATS44 said:

Folks think that great pitchers just showed up ten years ago, esp in Cleveland...due to new analytically driven techniques and training...which is hogwash.

The truth is that we don't know if this new pitching revolution is the baseball equivalent to the American Revolution...which changed much of the western world...or is it more like the series of Mexican revolutions that changed nothing.

What we know that pitchers have gotten better, but we have yet to know why. Is it due to increased velocities and spin rates, or is it due to the change in batting, with an emphasis on launch angles, exit velocities, and the abandonment of the two strike approach? Or is it due to highly intelligent defensive shifts?

And what percent of the increase in velocity and spin rates have been due to sticky substances?

Another thing we do know is that elbow injuries have sky rocketed over the last ten years, coinciding with the new wave pitching teachings.

The supporters of New Wave pitching pooh pooh the plethora of medical studies that strongly infer that the pitching revolution has caused the spike in elbow injuries...and cite the very few that disagree. Kinda reminds me of tobacco supported studies that insisted that smoking was not only not a cause of health problems, but actually were beneficial. In any case, there is no way to label the increase of injuries just as New Wave pitching arrived as somehow coincidental.

So what happens to all this great pitching loses its sticky stuff and begins to face batters more intent on making contact? And what happens if shifts are outlawed?
We shall see, but it is unlikely that TJ surgeons are suddenly going to be unemployed.

I believe when the dust settles, New Wave pitching will have improved pitching overall, but only incrementally. But that improvement will not include the pile of elbows it leaves behind.

In re Cleveland and New Wave pitching, the gears were in place for gathering and developing pitchers long before any of us were born. I doubt that there are many franchises that have had more young pitchers develop into truly great ones than Cleveland.

And it was Larry Dolan that on the first day of his ownership declared that the emphasis for the franchise would be pitching development.

Bauer may have speeded up the process, but the Indians were already on there way.

Click to expand...

Bauer was huge for the development, not just because of the fact he introduced the organization and players to new pitching developments, but also helped the other pitchers develop as well... There was stories were Bauer would help the other pitchers develop pitches and whatnot, from watching their bullpens. We don't have the start of the factory without Bauer... There isn't any ifs ands or buts about it...

CATS44 said:

Folks think that great pitchers just showed up ten years ago, esp in Cleveland...due to new analytically driven techniques and training...which is hogwash.

The truth is that we don't know if this new pitching revolution is the baseball equivalent to the American Revolution...which changed much of the western world...or is it more like the series of Mexican revolutions that changed nothing.

What we know that pitchers have gotten better, but we have yet to know why. Is it due to increased velocities and spin rates, or is it due to the change in batting, with an emphasis on launch angles, exit velocities, and the abandonment of the two strike approach? Or is it due to highly intelligent defensive shifts?

And what percent of the increase in velocity and spin rates have been due to sticky substances?

Another thing we do know is that elbow injuries have sky rocketed over the last ten years, coinciding with the new wave pitching teachings.

The supporters of New Wave pitching pooh pooh the plethora of medical studies that strongly infer that the pitching revolution has caused the spike in elbow injuries...and cite the very few that disagree. Kinda reminds me of tobacco supported studies that insisted that smoking was not only not a cause of health problems, but actually were beneficial. In any case, there is no way to label the increase of injuries just as New Wave pitching arrived as somehow coincidental.

So what happens to all this great pitching loses its sticky stuff and begins to face batters more intent on making contact? And what happens if shifts are outlawed?
We shall see, but it is unlikely that TJ surgeons are suddenly going to be unemployed.

I believe when the dust settles, New Wave pitching will have improved pitching overall, but only incrementally. But that improvement will not include the pile of elbows it leaves behind.

In re Cleveland and New Wave pitching, the gears were in place for gathering and developing pitchers long before any of us were born. I doubt that there are many franchises that have had more young pitchers develop into truly great ones than Cleveland.

And it was Larry Dolan that on the first day of his ownership declared that the emphasis for the franchise would be pitching development.

Bauer may have speeded up the process, but the Indians were already on there way.

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Are you sure about the number of arm injuries? It seems to me that new pitching techniques emphasize on taking the strain off the elbow, even if mildly. Admittedly I could be wrong, but I'd like to see your numbers. Guys like Giolito, Civale, Bieber, Plesac no longer have that long reach back in their motions.

As technology has advanced some have been quicker to take advantage of it. This is where I believe Bauer had the biggest influence. The thing that irked me about Bauer was he clearly had discovered a means to extract every last mph out of his arm without creating injury, but it took a few years to learn how to control it. I feel that he was an efficient thrower during his time with Cleveland, but far from a good pitcher.

There is something to be said about Cleveland's pitching prior to the arrival of Bauer. We had the likes of Kluber, Carrasco, Salazar, and a few others that experienced varying levels of success. I think Cleveland was ahead of the curve at that time as well. More in the sense of developing each pitcher individually to pitch to their strengths. This may be where the dreaded Mickey Callaway excelled as a pitching coach.

It is my opinion that good hitters(the kind you like) that use the entire field could see a revival if shifting is limited. The success of shifting cannot be argued by the mere fact that every team heavily employs it. I personally hate the extent of what it has become. I also firmly believe that the 3 true outcome hitter is a result of the excessive shifting.

Gson said:

Or it could be the warm and empathetic LA Media.. afterall.. I'm sure Trevor is running his stories he's going to post to his social media outlets by these peer reviewing pals !..





NOT....

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I'm not trying to start a political debate here, but Bauer's political affiliation/beliefs make him an easy target for the left leaning media, especially in California. I think they'd love to eat his ass for lunch and they're doing exactly that. On top of that, his teammates, in order to protect their own sanctities, are quick to condemn him before the facts have been presented. Those facts may very well condemn him. My point is if he, or anyone else for that matter, is condemned it should be the facts that do so instead of a baseless ideology.

Having said that, I find it difficult feeling sorry for Trevor because he's smart enough to know what I just mentioned. It's his own fault for putting himself in this circumstance regardless if it was consensual. I'd would have said "there's no way I'm choking or punching you, you crazy bitch" and the problem would have never come about. I may have given her an angry pirate though.

Calling her a “crazy bitch” would get him in some hot water nowadays as well…

Cleveland has been developing pitchers for a century. At several points in time it had the best rotation of the era....and not because the franchise could buy a rotation.

Anybody that suggests that Bauer did not help the Indians in developing pitching is spouting baloney. Anybody that suggests that he somehow started the pitching factory is spouting the opposite baloney.

********

The statistics of the history of elbow injuries is readily available.

A sobering stat...

One third of all MLB media lateral ulnar ligament surgeries (1989-2015) were performed in the years 2011-2015. A huge spike that coincides with the advent of new wave pitching techniques. And we don't need stats to know that pitchers have been dropping like flies at higher and higher rates since then.

More alarming is the number of teenagers who have hurt their arms, particularly their elbows, in the last twenty years.

Injuries mostly happen at the beginning and end of a MLB season...ramping up and late season fatigue. The latter cause is a head scratcher, because SPs routinely threw 250-350 IP on three day rest years ago. Nobody throws near those numbers today. And, supposedly, training techniques and preventative sports medicine is far advanced than fifty years ago.

So, whats the single, most obvious difference?

Velocity. Velocity goes up, elbow injuries go up....way up.

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The Indians have done a superb job of developing young pitchers. What I think gets overlooked is that they have done so well in identifying and acquiring pitchers that are good raw material for development. How many times do we see descriptions of young pitchers we acquire that include phrases like...,good mechanics...clean mechanics...repeatable mechanics? And how many of the college draftees have had fairly low IPs in their college careers, for whatever reason? And how many have had borderline velocities coming out of college?

I'm trying to think of how many of our SPs have had TJS once they arrived in Cleveland. There may be more, but I can think of only three in the recent past...Westbrook, Cookie, and Clevinger.

*******

There is a lot of convo about the influence that Bauer has had on our pitching. What doesn't get as much talk is the personal influence he has had on some of them. Two of the closest to him personally were Clev and Plesac...and we have seen and are seeing the results of that.

CATS44 said:

Except that Hammy is right on every count.

Will Bauer pitch again for the Dodgers?

No.

Is Scherzer a better pitcher?

Lets see now, Hall of Famer vs Bauer? By any conceivable measurement, it isn't close.

Better teammate?

Doh!

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Why is Bauers a bad teammate. I get he has asshole tendencies, and might even be on the spectrum imo. But everyone says he came to the Indians and taught his special way of thinking about pitching with the team and teammates and made the entire staff better after the Indians embraced it.

Sounds like a good teammate to me. What is more important, your teammate gets you a birthday gift or helps you improve your pitching.

Correct me if i am wrong, you know allot more about baseball than I do, but that is my take on Bauer, asshole who helped his teammates get better. Maybe the hitters hated him for being an asshole, but who cares, he made the staff better.

The theory is that Bauer made some of the pitchers better by teaching. The other theory is that Kluber made some of the pitchers better by example.

Another theory is that the organizational ability to develop pitching began with Bauer.

The first two have validity. The last is total BS.

Our present ability to develop pitching began with Larry Dolan, not Trevor Bauer. It was Dolan that poured money into pitching development when Bauer was in middle school.

CATS44 said:

The theory is that Bauer made some of the pitchers better by teaching. The other theory is that Kluber made some of the pitchers better by example.

Another theory is that the organizational ability to develop pitching began with Bauer.

The first two have validity. The last is total BS.

Our present ability to develop pitching began with Larry Dolan, not Trevor Bauer. It was Dolan that poured money into pitching development when Bauer was in middle school.

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But after Bauer got here, he influenced warm up routines, what is it driveline? That he is apart of that some of the Indians started using then as well. Essentially Arizona didn't embrace Bauer's suggestions while the Indians, did listen to what he had to say and actually used some of it as well. The Indians started to invest and that info and tech Bauer used which got them over that last hump in a sense. Bauer wasn't the first piece of the puzzle but he was one of the last ones that made the pitching factory become a factory.

Bauer when it comes to pitching and knowledge of it, may be in a class of his own... But I cannot say the same about everyday situations.

Thats the point. The pitching factory was already in place before Bauer. His ideas were embraced by Cleveland, while other orgs did not, because Cleveland was already ahead of the curve on pitching development...and at a point where they were willing to embrace it.

Dolan bought the team in 2000.

Since then the Tribe has had a plethora of very good pitchers, acquired as youngsters in various ways, and developed here.

CC
Lee
Westbrook
Kluber
Salazar
Carrasco

All without the help of Bauer...including four Cy Youngs.

You can make an argument that Bieber was helped by Bauer, and just as strong of an argument that he was influenced more by Kluber.

In any case, the Cleveland pitching factory has produced five CY Youngs in the past 15 years, and no other team is close.

Additionally they at least temporarily revived some starter‘s careers.

kevin millwood
scott kazmir

come to mind

Alabuckeye said:

Additionally they at least temporarily revived some starter‘s careers.

kevin millwood
scott kazmir

come to mind

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Scott Elarton (2004/ 2005 version, not the 2008)

Alabuckeye said:

Additionally they at least temporarily revived some starter‘s careers.

kevin millwood
scott kazmir

come to mind

Click to expand...

We were ahead of the curve when it came to medical care from like tommy john surgery as well, so you have to factor in some of that as well...

CATS44 said:

The theory is that Bauer made some of the pitchers better by teaching. The other theory is that Kluber made some of the pitchers better by example.

Another theory is that the organizational ability to develop pitching began with Bauer.

The first two have validity. The last is total BS.

Our present ability to develop pitching began with Larry Dolan, not Trevor Bauer. It was Dolan that poured money into pitching development when Bauer was in middle school.

Click to expand...

I believe this to be a very accurate statement CATS. It didn't begin with Bauer even though the methods to teach changed. It was kind of like a marriage of sorts. The Cleveland organization has always had an eye for pitchers and the modern techniques may have helped many of those pitchers reach their full potential. That could explain why Cleveland is apt to draft a more refined pitcher with the idea of developing a better arsenal.