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Cleveland Browns 2021 Regular Season: RIP

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2:08 - Hill sits right in Wards soft ass zone for a 20+ reception.

3:50 - Ward is literally matched up 1v1 against Hill in the slot - he gets torched for 15 yards on 3rd and 7. Again... giving insane amounts of cushion.

5:50 - probably not his fault, but Ward is 15 yards off the line in zone and Hill just slides right in front of him and the LB for an easy 12 yard gain.

8:15 - Ward matched up 1 on 1 on a 3rd & 3, Hill burns him for 7 on a curl route... once again SOFT AS FUCK IN COVERAGE.


Most of the rest of Hill's chunk yardage came against zone coverage in front of Newsome or another DB...

Still, this wasn't GREAT play from our best CB. He gave up 50-60 yards on about 6 targets to the area.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
If you can't stop Hill and Kelce, then nothing else matters.
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That's not what I'm saying.

They're too talented to be shutdown.

The real question is which would you rather do? Play a zone where both of them can exploit you or double Kelce and make it tougher on him and put one of the best corners in the league on Hill while occasionally giving him help?

I'd rather not just play a zone and let both of them get going. Now you're fucked because they're rolling.

And I disagree that Hill was being contained outside of that big TD reception on JJIII. Hill was roaming wherever he wanted in that zone and those small pickups kill all of your defensive momentum. Plus he's so good at YAC that he can easily turn a 5 yard reception in a soft zone to a 15 yard gain.

Meanwhile Kelce just kills you in the middle of the field in your zone. You have to man him up and double him so that if Mahomes is going to throw it at Kelce it will have to be in double coverage. Yes he's still good enough to convert on those plays but make it harder.

Playing the zone is not making anything harder for Mahomes, Hill, or Kelce. At least if you're doubling Kelce youre forcing him to either look at another option or force the ball to Kelce. I'd rather make him do that then watch them run 5 yards off the line whit no contact and just sit in a zone.
 
Los216 said:
That's not what I'm saying.

They're too talented to be shutdown.

The real question is which would you rather do? Play a zone where both of them can exploit you or double Kelce and make it tougher on him and put one of the best corners in the league on Hill while occasionally giving him help?

I'd rather not just play a zone and let both of them get going. Now you're fucked because they're rolling.

And I disagree that Hill was being contained outside of that big TD reception on JJIII. Hill was roaming wherever he wanted in that zone and those small pickups kill all of your defensive momentum. Plus he's so good at YAC that he can easily turn a 5 yard reception in a soft zone to a 15 yard gain.

Meanwhile Kelce just kills you in the middle of the field in your zone. You have to man him up and double him so that if Mahomes is going to throw it at Kelce it will have to be in double coverage. Yes he's still good enough to convert on those plays but make it harder.

Playing the zone is not making anything harder for Mahomes, Hill, or Kelce. At least if you're doubling Kelce youre forcing him to either look at another option or force the ball to Kelce. I'd rather make him do that then watch them run 5 yards off the line whit no contact and just sit in a zone.
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I don't agree with the assumptions you make.

I've explained how I think NFL defenses should play coverage against KC.

I also never said "Hill was being contained outside of that big TD" so I have no idea where you got that from.
 
MattyFos. said:
And that bomb was fluky as fuck cause Johnson had Hill covered like a swaddled baby before Mahomes (hommes) threw the ball about 5 yards short and Hill stopped on a dime and snagged it. that ball hits Hill in stride and it bounces off of Johnsons head.
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It was fluky for sure but that's a play where JJ3 turns around sooner 99% of the time. Once the play takes you that far out defenders are usually quick to locate the ball since an accurate pass that far down the field is a lot tougher to make than a close one.

If it wasn't Tyreek Hill I'm guessing he turns around faster. Just unfortunate for us, and I used to believe that Mahomes was just incredibly lucky but they do this all the time.
 
Triplethreat said:

2:08 - Hill sits right in Wards soft ass zone for a 20+ reception.

3:50 - Ward is literally matched up 1v1 against Hill in the slot - he gets torched for 15 yards on 3rd and 7. Again... giving insane amounts of cushion.

5:50 - probably not his fault, but Ward is 15 yards off the line in zone and Hill just slides right in front of him and the LB for an easy 12 yard gain.

8:15 - Ward matched up 1 on 1 on a 3rd & 3, Hill burns him for 7 on a curl route... once again SOFT AS FUCK IN COVERAGE.


Most of the rest of Hill's chunk yardage came against zone coverage in front of Newsome or another DB...

Still, this wasn't GREAT play from our best CB. He gave up 50-60 yards on about 6 targets to the area.
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These plays are what I'm talking about. They're playing Hill like they're scared of giving up a big play but giving him and easy 5 yard reception is a big play because he can turn it into a 15 yard gain most of the time.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
I don't agree with the assumptions you make.

I've explained how I think NFL defenses should play coverage against KC.

I also never said "Hill was being contained outside of that big TD" so I have no idea where you got that from.
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I think the Browns have the personnel to play them better than they did.

If you have a top 10 cover corner and two ends like Myles and Clowney, you should not be sitting in zone that damn much. You need to rely on your players skills a bit more. Trust that Denzel ward can win against Hill more than you trust playing a safe zone.
 
Los216 said:
That's not what I'm saying.

They're too talented to be shutdown.

The real question is which would you rather do? Play a zone where both of them can exploit you or double Kelce and make it tougher on him and put one of the best corners in the league on Hill while occasionally giving him help?

I'd rather not just play a zone and let both of them get going. Now you're fucked because they're rolling.

And I disagree that Hill was being contained outside of that big TD reception on JJIII. Hill was roaming wherever he wanted in that zone and those small pickups kill all of your defensive momentum. Plus he's so good at YAC that he can easily turn a 5 yard reception in a soft zone to a 15 yard gain.

Meanwhile Kelce just kills you in the middle of the field in your zone. You have to man him up and double him so that if Mahomes is going to throw it at Kelce it will have to be in double coverage. Yes he's still good enough to convert on those plays but make it harder.

Playing the zone is not making anything harder for Mahomes, Hill, or Kelce. At least if you're doubling Kelce youre forcing him to either look at another option or force the ball to Kelce. I'd rather make him do that then watch them run 5 yards off the line whit no contact and just sit in a zone.
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I think zone can be effective, but OUR zone was incredibly simple and rarely disguised anything. In order for disguises to work, we have to switch it up every now and then to keep them guessing, or else they'll just expect us to run the same zone no matter how our personnel is lined up pre-snap. There HAS to be some man coverage in there at times, and not just rarely.

I agree that Kelce will eat it up for lunch all the time, and so will Tyreek. When they know the zone we're playing, they'll option route us all day.

I encourage people to look at how the Broncos defended the Chiefs last year. They did not have the dawgs on offense like we do to pull out victories. Both games they defended Mahomes quite well (43-16 first game, like half the points came from the defense/special teams). Fangio is known for blitzing heavily, but dialed back the blitzes and did them strategically vs. Mahomes. He got a lot of pressure on Mahomes and was able to limit their offense both games. He also had disguises up the butthole and confused Pat quite a bit.
 
Los216 said:
I think the Browns have the personnel to play them better than they did.

If you have a top 10 cover corner and two ends like Myles and Clowney, you should not be sitting in zone that damn much. You need to rely on your players skills a bit more. Trust that Denzel ward can win against Hill more than you trust playing a safe zone.
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Respectfully, I don't think you understand coverage concepts.

I think there's an argument to be made that Denzel Ward, at times, can play like the best man coverage corner in football (I'd prefer someone like Ramsey, but Ward's up there)--and asking him to stick to Tyreek, one-on-one, is a recipe for disaster.

That just isn't a feat any corner in the history of the NFL is able to do. Tyreek's movement is like Steph Curry shooting threes. It's just something we've never seen before.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
Respectfully, I don't think you understand coverage concepts.

I think there's an argument to be made that Denzel Ward, at times, can play like the best man coverage corner in football (I'd prefer someone like Ramsey, but Ward's up there)--and asking him to stick to Tyreek, one-on-one, is a recipe for disaster.

That just isn't a feat any corner in the history of the NFL is able to do. Tyreek's movement is like Steph Curry shooting threes. It's just something we've never seen before.
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You can 1,000% play Hill in man with shadow coverage over the top…. In fact, I’m willing to say it would’ve worked out a whole lot better than whatever the fuck that was we tried doing yesterday.
 
It's fairly funny to see people act upset the Browns played a soft zone, as if they should have dominated an offense that's a defensive penalty away from 3 straight Super Bowl appearances.

The Browns held the best offense in the NFL to one uber explosive play and at a manageable 32 points yesterday. You take that every time against the Chiefs. If the secondary and defense look like that against the Texans, then we can talk.
 
Triplethreat said:
You can 1,000% play Hill in man with shadow coverage over the top…. In fact, I’m willing to say it would’ve worked out a whole lot better than whatever the fuck that was we tried doing yesterday.
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You can, if your defensive line/pass rush gets home. Unfortunately, their offensive line has been stout on the inside, and allowed Mahomes to step up and avoid edge pressure. And if Mahomes can escape and you're in man? It's game over.
 
Vee-Rex said:
I think zone can be effective, but OUR zone was incredibly simple and rarely disguised anything. In order for disguises to work, we have to switch it up every now and then to keep them guessing, or else they'll just expect us to run the same zone no matter how our personnel is lined up pre-snap. There HAS to be some man coverage in there at times, and not just rarely.

I agree that Kelce will eat it up for lunch all the time, and so will Tyreek. When they know the zone we're playing, they'll option route us all day.

I encourage people to look at how the Broncos defended the Chiefs last year. They did not have the dawgs on offense like we do to pull out victories. Both games they defended Mahomes quite well (43-16 first game, like half the points came from the defense/special teams). Fangio is known for blitzing heavily, but dialed back the blitzes and did them strategically vs. Mahomes. He got a lot of pressure on Mahomes and was able to limit their offense both games. He also had disguises up the butthole and confused Pat quite a bit.
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That Denver secondary might be the best in football, and Fangio is a hell of a defensive mind.

But... that game was in the snow. 15 degrees out, colder with wind chill.

You give me a healthy Delpit (what he could have been) and maybe we can pull off the same concepts with he and JJ3 acting as Simmons and Jackson. But, to be fair, a lot of that game was KC shooting themselves in their own foot, and I think that's a recipe we can follow as well. Make them run a lot of plays and hope they fuck up.

Unfortunately, the guys who fucked up often for them in that game--LT Eric Fischer and FB Nick Keizer are no longer on the team. Can't count on those guys to just straight forget to block people.
 
adam81king said:
The better team doesn't always win. Sometimes luck is involved. It wasn't a glaring difference between the Browns being vastly "better" than Kansas City, but the fact that they had 2 TOs and still were driving for the win, speaks to it being the Browns beating themselves; not being beaten by Kansas City.
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I get your point and I'm not trying to be pedantic. I just mean that, barring some hideous fluke play at the end of a game, the better team that day is the team that wins. I'm just a hardliner that way. Doesn't mean we can't be the better team at the end of the season.

KC forced Chubb's fumble and pressured Baker into the INT. That's them beating us. (Not getting into the scum over Schwartz/Thornhill, lol, it's pretty obvious that was a great effort with a little luck, sure.)

If we adjust and play a nearly flawless game, I have no doubts that we can win a playoff game against KC.
 
its fucking sweet to throw an adequate run defense out there. Surrendered 73 yards on 23 carries; this defense will put pressure on offenses to throw because they stop the run effectively I think. Things will be a lot easier for them when they aren’t playing one of the best quarterbacks ever. Was nice to see after watching whatever the fuck Ohio State was trying to do Saturday.

Also so good to hear Wills is day to day: waiting for Stefanski to announce that Greedy is year-to-year.
 
Los216 said:
Why can't you be successful playing more man against KC? Outside of Hill and Kelce who do you even have to worry about?

You don't have to play man the entire game but you should be playing more man that zone for the simple fact that you can double either Hill or Kelce and at least force Mahomes to have to throw it to them in double coverage as opposed to a zone.

I think I can live with double teaming Kelce for most of the game and letting Denzel Ward stick on Hill while occasionally giving Ward some help. The key to me is always doubling Kelce no matter what because he is the key to all of their underneath stuff. Once Kelce gets comfortable in those holes in your zone your entire defense is broken down now.

One thing that Tony Romo pointed out very well was how every play when Mahomes looks at the field he basically picks which guy is getting more coverage Hill or Kelce. Whoever is getting doubled he'll just look at the other guy first and when you're playing a soft zone you're just giving Hill or Kelce easy paths to receptions because all they have to do is sit right in the zone and Mahomes being as good as he is doesn't have to think about where to go for the ball. You basically made the choice for him.

So is Denzel Ward good enough to stick with Tyreke Hill and shut him down? No but I'd rather put one of the best corners in the game on Hill and then throw more bodies at Kelce.

If I'm going to lose to KC it's going to be by either Hill or Kelce going off while the other one gets contained or maybe you just force their other receivers to step up and make plays.
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This is what Tampa Bay tried to do in the regular season.

It’s what they entirely abandoned in the Super Bowl. I saw a stat where 44% of drop backs had pressure. That’s success on a defense.

The difference is Mahomes navigated the pocket so much better than he did in the SB. 44% of pressures weekly would destroy teams.
 
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