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Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

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Why is he such a big hit?

Plutko was the ground work for the archetype. He was a lab rat for their scouting/developing of a "low ceiling" college starting pitcher.

There is no 2016 draft if they don't draft Plutko and see the success he had right away in the minors and how quickly he rose through the system.

Process has been tweaked since then, especially the developmental part. But the drafting of him and the success he had changed the way the FO viewed college starters, what kind of pitcher to target, and how to draft and develop them.
 
Plutko was the ground work for the archetype. He was a lab rat for their scouting/developing of a "low ceiling" college starting pitcher.

There is no 2016 draft if they don't draft Plutko and see the success he had right away in the minors and how quickly he rose through the system.

Process has been tweaked since then, especially the developmental part. But the drafting of him and the success he had changed the way the FO viewed college starters, what kind of pitcher to target, and how to draft and develop them.

Did a guy like Tomlin also have any effect on it as well? I feel like Morgan almost came from the same tree as a Tomlin.
 
Plutko as our most valuable draft pick is a tad bit hyperbolic.

And the idea that any draft pick...high or low, teenage or college...is a success, merely because he gets to MLB without contributing...is the kind of success that gets GMs, draft overseers, and managers fired.

If you go into a draft knowing that teenage pitchers have such a low chance of ever throwing a pitch in MLB...let alone make any kind of impact...why draft them in the first place?
 
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Alright I'm out. Enjoy.
 
Plutko as our most valuable draft pick is a tad bit hyperbolic.

And the idea that any draft pick...high or low, teenage or college...is a success, merely because he gets to MLB without contributing...is the kind of success that gets GMs, draft overseers, and managers fired.

If you go into a draft knowing that teenage pitchers have such a low chance of ever throwing a pitch in MLB...let alone make any kind of impact...why draft them in the first place?

To develop them.

Sigh.
 
Plutko as our most valuable draft pick is a tad bit hyperbolic.

And the idea that any draft pick...high or low, teenage or college...is a success, merely because he gets to MLB without contributing...is the kind of success that gets GMs, draft overseers, and managers fired.

If you go into a draft knowing that teenage pitchers have such a low chance of ever throwing a pitch in MLB...let alone make any kind of impact...why draft them in the first place?

You arent getting it, he said Plutko was important because he was kind of a guinea pig and it worked so it kind of allowed them to get a system in place so Plutko was the most important since he set it up in a sense. Without Plutko we may not be a pitching factory lol
 
Believe me, I understand the value of research and development, which is what Plutko was.

But most valuable draft pick or young acquisition in years?

If it wasn't Plutko, it would have been somebody else.

How about signing a teenage, undersized, switch hitting MIF with superb contact skills but absolutely no power, and developing him into one of the top five players in baseball?

The prototype for the kind of position players we have been been drafting and acquiring for the past five years?
 
You said this FO "never" was as active as TB during any point of their contention window.

Do you seriously think that range of moves from 2016-2018 were not active, aggressive and purposeful, based on where those players were in their careers at the time the moves were made and what they did to support the teams run for the postseason the year they were traded for?

-Miller was almost unhittable for the remainder of 2016 and much of 2017. And we paid what was considered a premium price
-Napoli and Davis outperformed expectations in 2016 and had a big part in that season
-LuCroy was an aggressive move agreed upon by the two teams that LuCroy nixed
-We went to the World Series in 2016, just as TB did last year.
-Encarnacion was as big of a pickup as you'll get in a market like Cleveland or TB
-Bruce energized the lineup after his trade during that 16 game win streak that rocketed us into the playoffs.
-Donaldson was gamble in that
Do you seriously think that range of moves from 2016-2018 were not active, aggressive and purposeful, based on where those players were in their careers at the time the moves were made and what they did to support the teams run for the postseason the year they were traded for?

-Miller was almost unhittable for the remainder of 2016 and much of 2017. And we paid what was considered a premium price
-Napoli and Davis outperformed expectations in 2016 and had a big part in that season
-LuCroy was an aggressive move agreed upon by the two teams that LuCroy nixed
-We went to the World Series in 2016, just as TB did last year.
-Encarnacion was as big of a pickup as you'll get in a market like Cleveland or TB
-Bruce energized the lineup after his trade during that 16 game win streak that rocketed us into the playoffs.
-Donaldson was gamble in that his stats for the year prior to the trade were bad but the team believed a lot of that was injury related and the payoff could be big if he was healthy

Yes, this was all 3-5 years ago and you can pick apart and relitigate each move through the lease of your own opinion and hindsight, but YOU are the one who said NEVER
ok, never was a poor word choice. I shouldn’t have framed my argument with an absolute. I clearly support and want more of what we saw early on during that run.

Draw a line between the 17 and 18 seasons and that’s where my issues starts. They acted like a contending team in 16/17, but took their foot off the gas those last years. They started losing valuable pieces offensively and didn’t adequately replace them. They never addressed a woeful OF (still haven’t) in a meaningful way. The notion they didn’t have assets is untrue. They chose not to go this route for whatever reason.

With the SP’s + Jose/Lindor core in place, I think they wasted an opportunity. It’s really that simple. And all for what? So they could avoid an all out rebuild? If that’s the case, make some fucking trades this off season and don’t waste another season of Jose/Bieber in their prime. It’s time to be a little aggressive again.
 
The Indians were active in 16-17 and it paid dividends. I have no issues with with those seasons. They acted like a team with urgency to win.

But, they did start to take their foot off the gas prior to the 2018 season. That off season they lost Santana, Bruce and a bunch of bullpen arms via FA. The only MLB addition was to bring in Alonso. They did not make a single trade until the deadline deals . This despite clearly having a pretty weak OF group. Aside from Brantley finally staying healthy, their OF production was predictably terrible. That off season, guys like Yelich, Ozuna, Dickerson, McCutchen, Souza, Grichuk were all traded. Pham was traded during that season as well. Now, some of those guys weren’t very good in 2018, but they all had value at the time of the trade.

Fast forward to the following off season, the Indians lost another key bat in Brantley. They were actually active on the trade front swapping EE for Carlos and also acquiring Wittgren, Luplow, and Bauers with some reasonable hope they could help the MLB team. But they once again stopped short and did not address the horrible OF situation. Instead, they rolled out some of the worst lineups I’ve ever seen from a contending club for much of April and May.

Both of those seasons the approached seem to be throw shit at the wall to start and wait to make upgrades later on. I never understood it. They had a great rotation and Linder/Jose core and they needed to maximize that opportunity. Instead we heard the comments and chatter about “balancing the current and future”. Well the future was last season. Winning game

ok, never was a poor word choice. I shouldn’t have framed my argument with an absolute. I clearly support and want more of what we saw early on during that run.

Draw a line between the 17 and 18 seasons and that’s where my issues starts. They acted like a contending team in 16/17, but took their foot off the gas those last years. They started losing valuable pieces offensively and didn’t adequately replace them. They never addressed a woeful OF (still haven’t) in a meaningful way. The notion they didn’t have assets is untrue. They chose not to go this route for whatever reason.

With the SP’s + Jose/Lindor core in place, I think they wasted an opportunity. It’s really that simple. And all for what? So they could avoid an all out rebuild? If that’s the case, make some fucking trades this off season and don’t waste another season of Jose/Bieber in their prime. It’s time to be a little aggressive again.

Small market teams cannot always replace guys externally especially when they are overbudget for the market, they cannot keep up 150 million or so money wise in 17, so the budget had to come down and the next problem is the internal replacements never panned out hence why they traded for Luplow, Mercado etc. On paper they were overspent so they couldn't replace guys externally.

People forget majority of the roster was internally developed and signed extensions/under pre-arb/arb years and when the replacements for those guys didn't pan out, it was impossible to put more money into the roster with the poor attendance....
 
Believe me, I understand the value of research and development, which is what Plutko was.

But most valuable draft pick or young acquisition in years?

If it wasn't Plutko, it would have been somebody else.

How about signing a teenage, undersized, switch hitting MIF with superb contact skills but absolutely no power, and developing him into one of the top five players in baseball?

The prototype for the kind of position players we have been been drafting and acquiring for the past five years?
What's being said isn't the results (both failures & successes) of Adam Plutko.. Plutko was an 11th round pick in the 2013 draft.. He came out of UCLA as a class act and pitcher with limited velo but control and command of his fastball. He had secondaries, but they weren't as important as what this newly minted front office group came to see.. these guys: like the current staff Scott Barnsby and Eric Binder and (especially) Brad Grant and James Harris and Paul Gillispie and others who contributed as a working group that "Defined and Created" the model for future draftee choices.. many of whom were college starting pitchers.. These guys weren't necessarily Friday night starters.. or starters as freshman.. These were guys who had early insight into command and control of the most important pitch in baseball.. their fastballs. By identifying these guys.. the Biebers and and Klubers and others (not necessarily just draftees.. astute trades).. the Indians player development group was able to populate their system with guys that would become successful.. Adam Plutko, the UCLA leader type.. just happened to click the right boxes for the created model and was first on the list.. He performed as predicted... This model has served the Indians well and even more so after the voices in the prospect and talent acquisistion group held a stronger influence in the decision making this model defined.

Does it work all the time?.. what in baseball does.. but when a team's player acquisition grouping starts hitting on as many guys as this group's model has.. paying attention.. and LISTENING to those voices become sacrosanct..

This is what Bimbo is getting at.. not the specific guys.. the specific way they were evaluated as potential ML SP's and RP's..

Thoughts?..
 
The Indians as an org have changed the specifications of the pitching raw material they now acquire. They have refined the way they are developing that raw material.

These changes have brought excellent results at the MLB level, and other orgs have taken notice.

Now they are doing the same on the hitting side, but are not at the point yet where it has shown results at the MLB level. The acquisitions of Straw and maybe Gimenez are meant to jump start the move from development to actual production. If the hitting side matches the pitching side, that home grown production should hit Cleveland by 2023.
 
“I think it starts with the guys you’re taking in the draft,” opined Haase, who was in the Cleveland system from 2011-2019. “Obviously, there some are high-upside guys, and some organizations pick those top guys and kind of say, ‘Go out there and pitch.’ They think they’ve got themselves more of a finished product. With Cleveland, it was more about picking guys that already had a good feel for pitching, and then implementing things that would give them little spikes in velocity. They were big on weighted balls, big on strength and conditioning. Basically, they’d take guys who already had good command and give them some more legitimate weapons to get hitters out.”

-- Eric Haase via FG
 
While what Haase said sheds some light on Cleveland's SP success, I think a good portion of the plan can be credited to guys like Gomes, Perez, and now Hedges. Get guys that already have control, get an uptick on their "stuff", and tell them to do what the C tell them. It's certainly worked to this point and they're likely changing the way teams look at drafting pitchers. Good stuff!

This is the reason why I get excited when they pick up a Battenfield and Pilkington. I've come to expect them to surpass expectations even if that isn't really fair.
 

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