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Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

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Look at Yepez's OBP then look at his numbers. He's ready for an opportunity, but that doesn't mean he'll find success or consistency at the highest level. Hell, there are plenty of veterans than waiver in their performances. Look no further than Carlos Santana and Eddie Rosario. There are not guarantees. Vientos is the same. His OBP is very good. Both of these guys' power is what we need.

Sure, I'd rather sign Schwarber and Bryant then trade for a C and call it a day, but what do you think the chances of that are?
Yepez and especially Vientos are more of the low-ish OBP power hitters like Franmil. Franmil has 1.7 WAR / 600 PA despite crushing tons of HRs. They are deceptive on the surface but not all that valuable on the bottom line until they can increase that OBP.

And when I say low-ish I mean if you aren't going to provide value with speed or fielding, you are expected to mash, and for that role a league average-ish OBP is not really positive.
 
Yepez and especially Vientos are more of the low-ish OBP power hitters like Franmil. Franmil has 1.7 WAR / 600 PA despite crushing tons of HRs. They are deceptive on the surface but not all that valuable on the bottom line until they can increase that OBP.

And when I say low-ish I mean if you aren't going to provide value with speed or fielding, you are expected to mash, and for that role a league average-ish OBP is not really positive.

Yepez I think ends up at 1B... he had a legit 21 season though... he took more walks and less SOs while putting up his power in general. I am not against getting him. I just like Smith better because he can also field fairly well and he is solid speed wise... Yepez in 21 actually like doubled his BB rate so I think during 20 he really worked on his patience...
 
Yepez I think ends up at 1B... he had a legit 21 season though... he took more walks and less SOs while putting up his power in general. I am not against getting him. I just like Smith better because he can also field fairly well and he is solid speed wise... Yepez in 21 actually like doubled his BB rate so I think during 20 he really worked on his patience...
Vientos I'm more worried about the plate discipline stuff. Yepez seems more like the launch angle type that sells out BABIP for HRs, which is fine and all and quite likely an optimal approach, however it's likely to lead to a low-ish average even if he's hitting the ball hard. And I don't think he has the raw power of Vientos.

They can both be successful major leaguers, yes, but my point was just that high OBP isn't likely to be the mechanism.
 
Yepez and especially Vientos are more of the low-ish OBP power hitters like Franmil. Franmil has 1.7 WAR / 600 PA despite crushing tons of HRs. They are deceptive on the surface but not all that valuable on the bottom line until they can increase that OBP.

And when I say low-ish I mean if you aren't going to provide value with speed or fielding, you are expected to mash, and for that role a league average-ish OBP is not really positive.
Vientos as a 21 yr old in AA and AAA posted a combined OBP of .352 and he was better in AAA than AA, but solid all year. What exactly do you consider a low OBP to be? I also thought that if you could mash and drive in runs that particular hitter's OBP isn't as important. I like to reference because it either shows plate discipline, strong ability to put the ball in play or both.

I'm excited to see if Arias can translate his success, and Vientos is basically Arias with more power and better OBP. The difference in age is 2 months.
 
Personally - despite the differences in HR numbers, I like Palacios as a better option than Vientos or Yepez even though they are righties and Richie is a southpaw.

Edit. I like Yepez a ton more than Vientos FWIW
What makes you like Yepez better than Vientos? They literally had identical seasons at the same levels and Vientos is a yr younger. I like them both and both could be probably be acquired. Many will ask "what is that going to do for us this year"? Well, I don't really know what any player(s) will do for us, but they have a real potential to help this team for several years and they fit in nicely with the up and comers.

My take on the 22 season is a bit different than a few here. Yes, I want to win, but I don't want to burn the farm down for 1 or 2 players. We have the pitching staff to do it. We have JRam and Reyes in the lineup. We already have speed on the bases and now we need a couple of thumpers to drive them in. We have a farm system with several prospects either ready or close to being so. This thing is bigger than the 22 season. We're looking a being a perennial playoff contender for 10 yrs if we play the cards right. So if getting Yepez and/or Vientos doesn't pay immediate dividends then pays off big then I'm fine with that. If Plesac was sent to NY for Vientos you could probably get back Allan as well and he fits in perfectly with this organization. He'll start the season in AA, but could move quickly as he has frontline stuff and control. Just my $.02.
 
Vientos as a 21 yr old in AA and AAA posted a combined OBP of .352 and he was better in AAA than AA, but solid all year. What exactly do you consider a low OBP to be? I also thought that if you could mash and drive in runs that particular hitter's OBP isn't as important. I like to reference because it either shows plate discipline, strong ability to put the ball in play or both.

I'm excited to see if Arias can translate his success, and Vientos is basically Arias with more power and better OBP. The difference in age is 2 months.
If Arias didn't play good defense he wouldn't be considered a top prospect.

Arias is a much superior defensive player to Vientos, but his biggest weakness is OBP.

When I'm talking about low OBP I'm talking about what their skill set indicates their OBP will be in MLB. Vientos is given a .292 OBP by Steamer projections, which is not good. His BABIP is okay, he hits a lot of HRs, but he doesn't put enough balls in play or walk enough yet.

If you want to see guys in our system, Kwan (.406), Valera (.405), and Palacios (.404) all got above .400. Jones had an off year which started off terribly but even in that off year where he hit .238 he put up .356. Kwan is a god of contact, Valera and Jones draw a lot of walks and hit the ball hard, and Palacios combines pretty good contact with lots of walks. Vientos hits the ball hard but doesn't do the rest.

.352 would be good in the MLB but it isn't for a prospect especially when their skill set doesn't match up with OBP production...
 
If Arias didn't play good defense he wouldn't be considered a top prospect.

Arias is a much superior defensive player to Vientos, but his biggest weakness is OBP.

When I'm talking about low OBP I'm talking about what their skill set indicates their OBP will be in MLB. Vientos is given a .292 OBP by Steamer projections, which is not good. His BABIP is okay, he hits a lot of HRs, but he doesn't put enough balls in play or walk enough yet.

If you want to see guys in our system, Kwan (.406), Valera (.405), and Palacios (.404) all got above .400. Jones had an off year which started off terribly but even in that off year where he hit .238 he put up .356. Kwan is a god of contact, Valera and Jones draw a lot of walks and hit the ball hard, and Palacios combines pretty good contact with lots of walks. Vientos hits the ball hard but doesn't do the rest.

.352 would be good in the MLB but it isn't for a prospect especially when their skill set doesn't match up with OBP production...
I understand what you're saying, but we're talking about different hitters with different attributes, and why Steamer would project him at .292 when his OBP was .352 as a 21 yr old in the highest levels makes little sense. What isn't good is Steamer's projection percentages. Anyway, I would expect either Vientos' or Yepez's OBP to take a hit in MLB, but if they can go from .352 to say .320 and work from there then we have something. Cancelling prospects because they don't have a .400 OBP is lunacy. Make a list of prospects that have done that for us if you have the time. I'd be very interested to see who was and who wasn't a part of that.

Kwan and Palacios have sweet swings with excellent bat control and discipline. Vientos cannot give you that at that level, but what he can do is mash the baseball when he makes contact and his performance last season shouldn't be underestimated. Worst case scenario with Vientos is something like Hunter Renfroe IMO.

Arias is arguably the best defensive SS in the Guardians' organization at any level, but he's no slouch with the bat either. The 21 season was his second in a row of very good offensive production while being 3-4 yrs younger than the average player. He skipped AA altogether as well. Something happened with him in 2019 because a switch was definitely flipped. If(emphasis on if) he continues to develop better plate/pitch discipline then we're looking at another Correa type SS IMO. He could certainly plateau and in that case you have yourself a defensive wizard with power.

Valera is a special hitter and if your standard is him then you wouldn't even be able to field a team.
 
What a disingenuous argument lacking context.
Hardly disingenuous.

No prospect has ever won a game. They only win games when they become productive MLB players.

How many games did Andrew Miller win us?

How many games would the four prospects we traded for him have won for us?

Would we have done as well with them as we did with Miller?

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Nobody is suggesting that we trade all of our upper level prospects at one time.

THAT argument is disingenuous.

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We won't win the division with our present roster. And waiting until Jose and Biebs are gone won't win us the division, either.
 
Re: Bryan Reynolds: when the deal starts with Espino, Rocchio and Valera.. along with more.. that's defeating the team before they have a chance to play.. No one believes one player, coming or going, is going to be the difference between a parade down Euclid Avenue and looking forward to the two Browns preseason games in 2022.

Using collectivism hyperbolically is what is disingenuous.. "...we're not going to trade ALL OUR PROSPECTS..." Surely, the pitching side of a deal for someone that can/will help the 2022 Guardians can be cobbled from Joey Cantillo, Konner Pilkington Doug Nikhazy, Cody Morris, Payton Battenfield, Xzavion Curry, Tanner Burns, Lenny Torres Jr, Carlos Vargas, Tobias Myers, and Jerson Ramirez.. It doesn't need to include Logan T Allen, Daniel Espino, Gavin Williams, Ethan Hankins and Nick Mikolajchak..because, if it does, then there isn't a deal.. The future of the club, both short and long term, is always a consideration for this club.. and it must be. The context is clear.. Don't take away the best chance to be successful for a "one timer".. This club and it's fans.. can't afford it..
 
As I stated above, history shows that we can, and we have, done just that in the past...and were able to afford it very well.

History has also shown us that the first ask in trades involving this FO is not always the final ask...and also that there is often a long period between the first ask and the final transaction.

Obviously, we are not going to trade Espino, Valera, and Rocchio for any one player, but we are gonna trade some valuable assets in order to significantly upgrade this roster. The more significant the upgrade, the more valuable the assets that will be traded.

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Although this is not basketball, where one player can carry an entire team, the right one or two players can put this team at the top of the division...because we aren't that far off right now.

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If we have all this supposed depth of young pitching....any one of them can be traded. The better the pitching prospect traded, the bigger the upgrade to the present team.

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The pre 2019 fangrapghs prospect list had eighteen SP prospects ranked higher than Espino today...most with higher FVs. Almost all of them were at least as far along and closer to MLB ready.

Most posters on this forum would have refused to trade any of them for three/four years of offensive upgrade.

Thats 18 starting pitchers.

Two have been more productive than Civale, Plesac, and Quantrill over that time period. Most never will be.

Only two have been as productive in that period than Ian Happ.

Obviously, a few will be more valuable down the road, but the question is what will the team be over the next three years...and recent history suggests that Espino, or any of our pitching prospects, won't be better than what we have now, over the next three years, and certainly should not be a deterrent to acquiring position playing 9-12 WAR over the next three years.
 
As I stated above, history shows that we can, and we have, done just that in the past...and were able to afford it very well.

History has also shown us that the first ask in trades involving this FO is not always the final ask...and also that there is often a long period between the first ask and the final transaction.

Obviously, we are not going to trade Espino, Valera, and Rocchio for any one player, but we are gonna trade some valuable assets in order to significantly upgrade this roster. The more significant the upgrade, the more valuable the assets that will be traded.

**********

Although this is not basketball, where one player can carry an entire team, the right one or two players can put this team at the top of the division...because we aren't that far off right now.

********

If we have all this supposed depth of young pitching....any one of them can be traded. The better the pitching prospect traded, the bigger the upgrade to the present team.

*********

The pre 2019 fangrapghs prospect list had eighteen SP prospects ranked higher than Espino today...most with higher FVs. Almost all of them were at least as far along and closer to MLB ready.

Most posters on this forum would have refused to trade any of them for three/four years of offensive upgrade.

Thats 18 starting pitchers.

Two have been more productive than Civale, Plesac, and Quantrill over that time period. Most never will be.

Only two have been as productive in that period than Ian Happ.

Obviously, a few will be more valuable down the road, but the question is what will the team be over the next three years...and recent history suggests that Espino, or any of our pitching prospects, won't be better than what we have now, over the next three years, and certainly should not be a deterrent to acquiring position playing 9-12 WAR over the next three years.
If you don't know or realize the difference between Espino in 2019 and the current version then I don't blame you for opinion. It lacks accurate data and analysis though. Espino is the stuff dreams are made of when it comes to SP and no team would do us the favor of giving us a SP prospect like him and we should do the same.

Reynolds' cost is astronomical in the same way JRam's is so conversing about it is silly. It's not going to happen. The cost of Mullins isn't much less and he's had 1 season of excellent production. I'm not selling a portion of my best prospects for that risk. The best path forward IMO is looking for a good young hitter that needs an opportunity if you cannot afford to fill a need or 2 via FA. A guy like Happ is still a good idea, but he should cost us much because he's just not that good. Vast improvement over what we had for sure, but not an elite hitter by any means.

Here's the thing for me CATS, and I believe I've mentioned it before. Prospects like Morris, Battenfield, Pilkington, Myers, Espino and Allen are our depth and you of all people should appreciate the quality of it. There are very good pitching prospects that are a little further away that have to have value to other organizations. Guys like Williams, Curry, Burns, Nikhazy, and Mace are high upside pitching prospects that can be used in a deal or deals. It doesn't have to be our best ready or near ready prospects. The same goes for the position players although I'd be willing to let Jones, Freeman, and/or Naylor go in the right deal. You might even be able to convince me to put Arias in the right deal too. We can trade either one of Plesac or Civale before the season starts and maybe the other one at the break. They can deal Rosario when the Correa dust settles. There's more than enough to fill a couple of needs.

Another factor in my reasoning is that I don't believe Bieber wants to or will be extended by Cleveland. He's a California boy and he'll probably be headed to the west coast at some point. If that is indeed the case then he'll be dealt before he hits FA.
 
If you don't know or realize the difference....needs

Another factor in my reasoning is that I don't believe Bieber wants to or will be extended by Cleveland. He's a California boy and he'll probably be headed to the west coast at some point. If that is indeed the case then he'll be dealt before he hits FA.
There was a four for one deal suggested between the Braves and the Guardians in a Mark Polishuk chat at MLB Trade Rumors last night.. There will be more.. many more..
 
There was a four for one deal suggested between the Braves and the Guardians in a Mark Polishuk chat at MLB Trade Rumors last night.. There will be more.. many more..
Looked it up - he also said midseason 2023 would make more sense with the Guardians' MO which I agree with. This year if we're selling anyone at the deadline it's going to be JRam.

I'm not much of a fan of offseason trades in general because you can generally get a much better return on them by making them before the deadline on the prior year, and even midseason in the current year the price usually isn't that much different because buyers see the rest of the year as high leverage anyway even if it's much less than half of the season. An exception to this is teams like the Dodgers who obviously are going to see themselves as a playoff team before the year starts so they'd much prefer a full year pickup over midseason rentals.
 
Looked it up - ... An exception to this is teams like the Dodgers who obviously are going to see themselves as a playoff team before the year starts ...
The Braves are going to be the defending Champions.. w/ Freddie balking at their offer.. the Braves FO may pivot to solidifying their pitching & just might make an offer.. The braves will be getting Acuna and Albies and some of their offensive guys back for at least most of the year.. The Braves are, afterall, another exception like the dodgers.. That is.. they see themselves as a playoff team before the year starts, too..
 
There was a four for one deal suggested between the Braves and the Guardians in a Mark Polishuk chat at MLB Trade Rumors last night.. There will be more.. many more..

What was the deal? If it's for JRam its not gonna happen lol
 

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