Darius Kinnard Garland

BimboColesHair · Jan 17, 2022

PIP said:
This may exactly be what it is. Darius Garland is running the team. He’s making the right play at the right time and everyone is engaged cause they even believe he’s gonna make the right play….

Again for me it’s the Steve Nash/Barbosa effect (mid 2000’s) and I understand that’s not the best example…

Each guy on any given night can give you 21 points and 8-10 ast — but it’s how and when they did it and the confidence you had in each…

Barbosa could fill in for Nash and some nights drop 27pts and 10ast but his ability to come off the bench and give you 14th and 4ast was for greater spelling Nash or sometimes playing along side him…

This is clearly Garland’s team in every aspect and the players expect him to make the right play for either himself or them— whereas with Sexton I feel they’re watching him, expecting him to create for himself first and then perhaps get them involved…

It may very well be an unfair critique criticism of Sexton, but that’s the vibe I get when watching his style of play/leadership….

For me it's also hard to judge because Sexton played with absolute trash in his 3 seasons with the ball in his hands and Garland has a legit good team around him this season. Both him and Garland put up similar passing tracking stats last year to each other, Garland had more raw stat output and conversions on his passes which suggests he is passing more in the flow of the offense then sporadically to his teammates, but I'm not sure I agree with that. But you are right, they both are 2 different passers who set things up differently to guys in different spots.

The one thing Sexton does better than anyone still on the roster, including Garland, is the drive and kick game. He has been and was hunting as many of those chances as he could up until he got hurt this season, especially in transition when he pushed the rock. When you hunt drive and kicks on the worst 3 point shooting team over the course of your 3 years as a pro you aren't going to get a lot of raw assists. He relies on penetration, collapsing defenses and then kicking out or dumping off to teammates to get a majority of his assists and thrive as a playmaker for others. So his assists come from him doing most of the work to either a stationary shooter or a big who flashes to an opening in the paint.

Garland on the other hand is a maestro with anyone moving towards the basket. Pick and roll game, hitting cutters, give and go's, in transition with guys filling the lane heading downhill, etc. He is on another level in those play types. Just a feel for the game on those passes with both him and the recipient on the move that not many guys can do efficiently and game in/game out. His assists come with all parts moving and to a number of different levels and spots.

Big reason I still like the fit of Sexton on the roster, not necessarily as a starter next to Garland, is because he thrives at the things that the team currently lacks. This team is going to get hammered with every look in the book defensively for years to come because of Garland and the skillset of Mobley giving you 2 playmaking threats at both levels with a high level feel for the game. You need a guy who can break that by himself or get into the paint and collapse those looks to set guys up when defenses design to take those looks away. You need shooting. You need efficient scoring. We've seen this team deal with a number of stretches where it is easy to see, even with Garland playing, where Sexton would have helped immensely.

Now, the big thing the Cavs FO and coaching staff has to figure out by this summer (outside of the $ and years aspect) is if a potential return of Sexton to the floor with this group would send Garland back into the passive guy we saw his first 2 seasons and the first 11 games of this season. If they have an inkling or feeling that that will happen, move Sexton. If they believe this Garland who looks for his shot, is aggressive looking to get to his spots to score, runs the offense at an expert level, etc. is here to stay regardless of personnel...well, that is something we never got to see with Sexton and it at least intrigues me in how difficult that pairing could be, in stretches, to guard.

buzzdog · Jan 17, 2022

CavsKermit said:
I'm projecting off of his usage rate over three years and where the overwhelming majority of those shots were taken on the court. You're projecting based from within the bottom of a hopes and wishes jar.

Those three years Sexton was forced to be the primary scorer because of the lack of talent around him on a team that was tanking. You can throw that out the window with this lineup and talent level. This is clearly Garland's team now, and Sexton has had all season to see how it can work. But Garland is going to need help or he'll get worn out over the grind of the season and playoff runs, being the primary focal point. Spreading some of that focus and forcing opponents to deal with multiple facilitators and scorers will only help Garland over the long haul.

The Human Q-Tip · Jan 17, 2022

BimboColesHair said:
I don't get the idea or belief on this forum and among this fanbase that Sexton a) would refuse to play a different role other than the primary focal point on offense or b) has to change how we was playing in order to fit in with the current team. He already clearly was asked to and accepted both things and was working towards that.

I think that is a strawman. The issue isn't Sexton "refusing" to play a different role, or even just being willing to play that role. The question is how good is he going to be in a role that is different from the ball-dominant one he has always played throughout his basketball career? Even he admitted the adjustment wasn't easy. And it isn't assuming that he can't - it's not assuming that he can. In other words, we don't know how successful he is going to be at making that adjustment. It is an unknown.

BimboColesHair said:
When he went down this was the shot breakdown, per game:

Sexton - 13.7 FGA
Markk - 12.1 FGA
Rubio - 11.9 FGA
Garland - 11.7 FGA
Mobley - 11.5 FGA

Yes...and his three point percentage was at a a career low, his assists per 36 were at the lowest of his career, and his turnovers/36 were at a career high. His eFG% and TS% both were barely above his rookie numbers, and well below his numbers the last two seasons.

Again, the point isn't saying that Sexton can't/won't adjust his game. Just him being who he is means he will work his ass off do so. But it is not certain he can adjust his game while still contributing at a very high level, and even if he can, how long it will take him to make that adjustment while still being as efficient as he was before.

Those inherent uncertainties are something Koby will have to take into account in terms of building this roster moving forward. Maybe it makes sense to keep Collin and roll the dice that he will adjust to being a less ball-dominant player coming off the bench, or maybe it makes more sense to move him to a team where he can have a more ball-dominant roll as a starter. But I don't think we can or should wave away those uncertainties when it comes to discussing roster building moving forward.

buzzdog · Jan 17, 2022

BimboColesHair said:
For me it's also hard to judge because Sexton played with absolute trash in his 3 seasons with the ball in his hands and Garland has a legit good team around him this season. Both him and Garland put up similar passing tracking stats last year to each other, Garland had more raw stat output and conversions on his passes which suggests he is passing more in the flow of the offense then sporadically to his teammates, but I'm not sure I agree with that. But you are right, they both are 2 different passers who set things up differently to guys in different spots.

The one thing Sexton does better than anyone still on the roster, including Garland, is the drive and kick game. He has been and was hunting as many of those chances as he could up until he got hurt this season, especially in transition when he pushed the rock. When you hunt drive and kicks on the worst 3 point shooting team over the course of your 3 years as a pro you aren't going to get a lot of raw assists. He relies on penetration, collapsing defenses and then kicking out or dumping off to teammates to get a majority of his assists and thrive as a playmaker for others. So his assists come from him doing most of the work to either a stationary shooter or a big who flashes to an opening in the paint.

Garland on the other hand is a maestro with anyone moving towards the basket. Pick and roll game, hitting cutters, give and go's, in transition with guys filling the lane heading downhill, etc. He is on another level in those play types. Just a feel for the game on those passes with both him and the recipient on the move that not many guys can do efficiently and game in/game out. His assists come with all parts moving and to a number of different levels and spots.

Big reason I still like the fit of Sexton on the roster, not necessarily as a starter next to Garland, is because he thrives at the things that the team currently lacks. This team is going to get hammered with every look in the book defensively for years to come because of Garland and the skillset of Mobley giving you 2 playmaking threats at both levels with a high level feel for the game. You need a guy who can break that by himself or get into the paint and collapse those looks to set guys up when defenses design to take those looks away. You need shooting. You need efficient scoring. We've seen this team deal with a number of stretches where it is easy to see, even with Garland playing, where Sexton would have helped immensely.

Now, the big thing the Cavs FO and coaching staff has to figure out by this summer (outside of the $ and years aspect) is if a potential return of Sexton to the floor with this group would send Garland back into the passive guy we saw his first 2 seasons and the first 11 games of this season. If they have an inkling or feeling that that will happen, move Sexton. If they believe this Garland who looks for his shot, is aggressive looking to get to his spots to score, runs the offense at an expert level, etc. is here to stay regardless of personnel...well, that is something we never got to see with Sexton and it at least intrigues me in how difficult that pairing could be, in stretches, to guard.

I agree completely with these points, except I see absolutely no way in Hell that Garland ever goes back into passive mode after he's tasted being the floor general the way he has this year. Sexton will have to fit in with him. And to be sure Garland can benefit by taking a breather while Sexton does his thing at times, even benefit from getting open perimeter looks when Sexton drives and kicks. I think the biggest benefit of keeping Sexton is it takes a little pressure off Garland, because right now the fate of the entire team is completely on him and he knows it. I think he needs to be able to relax a little more during the game and still know the offense is going to run and score efficiently, even when he's off the ball. And giving defenses two quick guys who can attack to deal with, instead of only one, can benefit Garland in certain situations.

buzzdog · Jan 17, 2022

The Human Q-Tip said:
I think that is a strawman. The issue isn't Sexton "refusing" to play a different role, or even just being willing to play that role. The question is how good is he going to be in a role that is different from the ball-dominant one he has always played throughout his basketball career? Even he admitted the adjustment wasn't easy. And it isn't assuming that he can't - it's not assuming that he can. In other words, we don't know how successful he is going to be at making that adjustment. It is an unknown.

Yes...and his three point percentage was at a a career low, his assists per 36 were at the lowest of his career, and his turnovers/36 were at a career high. His eFG% and TS% both were barely above his rookie numbers, and well below his numbers the last two seasons.

Again, the point isn't saying that Sexton can't/won't adjust his game. Just him being who he is means he will work his ass off do so. But it is not certain he can adjust his game while still contributing at a very high level, and even if he can, how long it will take him to make that adjustment while still being as efficient as he was before.

Those inherent uncertainties are something Koby will have to take into account in terms of building this roster moving forward. Maybe it makes sense to keep Collin and roll the dice that he will adjust to being a less ball-dominant player coming off the bench, or maybe it makes more sense to move him to a team where he can have a more ball-dominant roll as a starter. But I don't think we can or should wave away those uncertainties when it comes to discussing roster building moving forward.

Sexton was adjusting to the new ball (like the rest of the league), he was playing hurt for a lot of those games, on top of trying to adjust his whole style of play. I don't think how he played this season before the season ending injury is representative of who he is as a player.

BimboColesHair · Jan 17, 2022

The Human Q-Tip said:
I think that is a strawman. The issue isn't Sexton "refusing" to play a different role, or even just being willing to play that role. The question is how good is he going to be in a role that is different from the ball-dominant one he has always played throughout his basketball career? Even he admitted the adjustment wasn't easy. And it isn't assuming that he can't - it's not assuming that he can. In other words, we don't know how successful he is going to be at making that adjustment. It is an unknown.

Yes...and his three point percentage was at a a career low, his assists per 36 were at the lowest of his career, and his turnovers/36 were at a career high. His eFG% and TS% both were barely above his rookie numbers, and well below his numbers the last two seasons.

Again, the point isn't saying that Sexton can't/won't adjust his game. Just him being who he is means he will work his ass off do so. But it is not certain he can adjust his game while still contributing at a very high level, and even if he can, how long it will take him to make that adjustment while still being as efficient as he was before.

Those inherent uncertainties are something Koby will have to take into account in terms of building this roster moving forward. Maybe it makes sense to keep Collin and roll the dice that he will adjust to being a less ball-dominant player coming off the bench, or maybe it makes more sense to move him to a team where he can have a more ball-dominant roll as a starter. But I don't think we can or should wave away those uncertainties when it comes to discussing roster building moving forward.

I'm not fretting over his 3 point % or TS % when his entire season consisted of him playing while the entire leagues shooting numbers were down with the new ball.

It had nothing to do with how he was playing either, Cavs were getting him the same wide open looks they currently get Lauri, Garland, Cedi, etc. That is also a strawman argument, to me, that he was struggling with efficiency because of his new role. I don't agree with that at all. Guy was getting the most wide open looks at 3s and shots in general than he had at any point in his career. He was shooting like 25% on those looks too. Not sustainable, not for a shooter/scorer of his level, just like the leaguewide low shooting numbers to start the season.

And none of us know how Collin would fit in with this version of Garland. None of us got to see these 2 together for a single minute over 3 seasons, which is a shame.

But I have seen the kid improve aspects of his game fans have said he can't improve every season. He is the one guy on the team I am not going to say "he can't do this or get good at this". I did that with his shooting early on as a rookie and learned my lesson quick with who he is when he is asked to do something that will make him better or his team better.

And again, no one will be able to convince me otherwise...keeping Sexton around doesn't mean he is around for the next 5+ seasons. There isn't a single contract he can sign where the Cavs can't move off him if they wanted to, and for that reason alone I am not about tossing him aside.

Cavatt · Jan 17, 2022

buzzdog said:
I agree completely with these points, except I see absolutely no way in Hell that Garland ever goes back into passive mode after he's tasted being the floor general the way he has this year. Sexton will have to fit in with him. And to be sure Garland can benefit by taking a breather while Sexton does his thing at times, even benefit from getting open perimeter looks when Sexton drives and kicks. I think the biggest benefit of keeping Sexton is it takes a little pressure off Garland, because right now the fate of the entire team is completely on him and he knows it. I think he needs to be able to relax a little more during the game and still know the offense is going to run and score efficiently, even when he's off the ball. And giving defenses two quick guys who can attack to deal with, instead of only one, can benefit Garland in certain situations.

Yeah this is my take. Garland is not going to let Sexton come back and dominate the ball.

I still think they can start with Sexton him coming off the floor early and really early in certain matchups.

Sexton can do a lot to make Garlands job easier. If Garland ends up taking a couple fewer shots and getting more assists I don't care.

Sexton doesn't have the capital to change what's happening here. He will need to fit in and I think he has shown good faith that he put that effort into it

The Human Q-Tip · Jan 17, 2022

BimboColesHair said:
I'm not fretting over his 3 point % or TS % when his entire season consisted of him playing while the entire leagues shooting numbers were down with the new ball.

It had nothing to do with how he was playing either, Cavs were getting him the same wide open looks they currently get Lauri, Garland, Cedi, etc. That is also a strawman argument, to me, that he was struggling with efficiency because of his new role. I don't agree with that at all. Guy was getting the most wide open looks at 3s and shots in general than he had at any point in his career. He was shooting like 25% on those looks too. Not sustainable, not for a shooter/scorer of his level, just like the leaguewide low shooting numbers to start the season.

I'm kind of in awe of how you can be so absolutely certain of something that is inherently unknowable. We are/were asking Sexton to play much differently than he was playing before -- the way that has come naturally to him and the way he has played probably ever since he first picked up a basketball. Rather than taking the play in front of him and following his usual instincts, he had to think about whether that was consistent with the new role he was supposed to play. "Hey, am now in that part of the shot clock where I have a green light, or not?" Now, maybe having to think like that rather than just reacting naturally adversely impacted his efficiency, and maybe it didn't. But there is no way in hell for anyone to be so absolutely certain about that. The game is as mental as it is physical.

BimboColesHair · Jan 17, 2022

The Human Q-Tip said:
I'm kind of in awe of how you can be so absolutely certain of something that is inherently unknowable. We are/were asking Sexton to play much differently than he was playing before -- the way that has come naturally to him and the way he has played probably ever since he first picked up a basketball. Rather than taking the play in front of him and following his usual instincts, he had to think about whether that was consistent with the new role he was supposed to play. "Hey, am now in that part of the shot clock where I have a green light, or not?" Now, maybe having to think like that rather than just reacting naturally adversely impacted his efficiency, and maybe it didn't. But there is no way in hell for anyone to be so absolutely certain about that. The game is as mental as it is physical.

I mean, you seem certain his shooting numbers were because of his new role. I'm making my argument for what I think was going on, I have no certain info on anything. Just like the argument you are making against mine.

We'll just leave it here and agree to disagree. In reality it was probably what makes the most sense, a mixture of his new role, the new ball, some health issues with his shoulder, and a fairly new rotation with a lot of new faces he was playing with.

The Human Q-Tip · Jan 17, 2022

BimboColesHair said:
I mean, you seem certain his shooting numbers were because of his new role.

I have no idea how you got that from my posts.

The Human Q-Tip said:
Now, maybe having to think like that rather than just reacting naturally adversely impacted his efficiency, and maybe it didn't.

We're clearly not communicating clearly, so I'll just punt on this.

CavsKermit · Jan 17, 2022

buzzdog said:
Those three years Sexton was forced to be the primary scorer because of the lack of talent around him on a team that was tanking. You can throw that out the window with this lineup and talent level. This is clearly Garland's team now, and Sexton has had all season to see how it can work. But Garland is going to need help or he'll get worn out over the grind of the season and playoff runs, being the primary focal point. Spreading some of that focus and forcing opponents to deal with multiple facilitators and scorers will only help Garland over the long haul.

Look, Sexton wasn't forced to do anything. That's just nonsense. He's an undersized guy who's a good finisher and possesses elite speed which he uses to beat defenders to his spots in the paint. He played the way he did because it was to his advantage to do so, the same as players like Monte Ellis and AI before him. The problem is that playing that fast involves committing to a very small set of outcomes, inhibits your ability to see the floor, and it's difficult to build a cohesive team offense around that. The latter takes a very specific type of personnel which the Cavs do not have.

Even if he tries to take a more deliberate approach, I'm not sure that he'll be *better* as he'll be sacrificing his one elite skill in the process. He's streaky shooter from the outside and he's practically hardwired to put the ball on the floor and drive into the paint.

Both Sexton and the Cavs should take a very clear eyed look at whether he's a good fit in terms of personnel and scheme with this team. They should be asking themselves how Sexton would have to change his game, what the chances of success are, and if they do make it work, what the time horizon for a positive outcome would be.

In my view, it would require a herculean level of commitment on Sexton's part, the road would be bumpy for the Cavs, it's unlikely to produce positive results, and even if they get there, it could take the majority of his next contract to pan out.

My biggest concern is that the Cavs get caught up in the *losing talent* narrative, while Sexton focuses on getting his money first, and we all learn the hard way next season that none of the other relevant questions were asked by either side.

Derek · Jan 17, 2022

buzzdog said:
Sexton was adjusting to the new ball (like the rest of the league), he was playing hurt for a lot of those games, on top of trying to adjust his whole style of play. I don't think how he played this season before the season ending injury is representative of who he is as a player.

You’re completely missing the thesis statement.

Most of us are just saying that we have no evidence that Sexton can make the adjustment to effectively playing within the role we need him to play.

We’re not trying to write Sexton off. We’re just wary of making a big bet on an unknown.

BimboColesHair · Jan 17, 2022

The Human Q-Tip said:
I have no idea how you got that from my posts.

We're clearly not communicating clearly, so I'll just punt on this.

Wasn't talking about this post in particular, more about what it felt like you were saying in a previous response to me about his shooting and scoring efficiency being tied back to his willingness to accept a different role offensively.

But yes, let's punt it.

bs80 · Jan 17, 2022

buzzdog said:
Re-reading it I see he wasn't saying it wouldn't work only if it didn't work. From my perspective I see no reason why SexLand won't work in limited minutes with Sexton spelling Garland for when Garland rests, then play him when needed for matchups and instant offense.

Absolutely. I can see Sexland on the floor about as often as JBB trotted Garland and Rubio out there together, and I could absolutely see it working. If we could bring back Ricky next season then I could see Sexton playing the majority of his minutes with Rubio

Among the many things Garland has improved on is his on-ball defense. In another thread I went back to check how Isaac did when guarding SGA, but I noticed multiple instances where Darius forced Shai into missing shots. Very impressive, and that bodes very well for Sexland in the future.

Heat Check · Jan 17, 2022

buzzdog said:
Those three years Sexton was forced to be the primary scorer because of the lack of talent around him on a team that was tanking.

I can't imagine the mental pain Sexton had to endure, being forced to take all those shots and dominate the ball. That's hell for an NBA scorer.

And what about the individual accolades he was showered with as a consequence of this unfortunate role? Terrible. Just terrible. Truly a fate you wouldn't wish even for your worst enemy.

Darius Kinnard Garland

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