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(No Longer) Joe Woods’ Defense

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CBBI said:
I would be very surprised if the Browns actually fired Woods during the season.

That sort of drastic change so early in the season seems to completely go against the process oriented system they have place from DePodesta to Berry to Stefanski and on down.

After the season, sure. But that just doesn't seem like something they would do during the year.
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I wouldn't put anything past Jimmy Haslam, though.

Maybe it's short-sighted and could have long-term consequences... but goddammit we have a chance this year if we can win enough games before Deshaun returns. And it would be a joke to squander it away not because of Brissett, not because of a terrible offense, but primarily because of defensive coaching. We're what... a 27th ranked defense right now? Sureeeee, only 2 games, but those were 2 games against Baker and Flacco.

This HAS to change come Thursday, IMO. The Jets game was painful because it could possibly be the best game we see from Jacoby, and a single game could be the difference between the playoffs>Superbowl and missing the playoffs entirely.
 
CBBI said:
I would be very surprised if the Browns actually fired Woods during the season.

That sort of drastic change so early in the season seems to completely go against the process oriented system they have place from DePodesta to Berry to Stefanski and on down.

After the season, sure. But that just doesn't seem like something they would do during the year.
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I think this is a good point, but I also have to assume these guys have a threshold if there is an egregious enough of a failure in a position/area that is clearly losing them games.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
The NFL actually put together a pretty decent visual graphic based around PFF coverage analysis from last year:

Which NFL teams mix up defensive coverages the most week-to-week | NFL Football Operations

operations.nfl.com operations.nfl.com

View attachment 12074

I think us and Green Bay stand out as being obsessively slanted toward cover 3/4/6 zones. This meets the eye test. The Browns are so consistent and vanilla in their soft coverage schemes that the opposing QB gets comfortable. I want the opposing QB uncertain--I want him to be guessing every play what we could throw at him. I want players moving around and coverages to be disguised pre-snap. Every tenth of a second you can make an opposing QB hold onto the ball because he's uncertain is a win in the NFL. This is exactly what I want out of my defensive coordinator--someone who is going to take every tenth of a second he can from the QB.

This is exactly what Joe Woods is not.

I don't think that Woods can succeed at this level unless he re-invents himself dramatically. If you're going to play these soft zone schemes this regularly, you have to attack the opponent when you win. What we've seen time-and-time-again is that, even if we win and get the opponent into third and long, he doesn't deviate--he doesn't attack. He just gives the opponent the same easy, comfortable reads and watches as they convert. In his mind, he's telling himself that he called the right defense--but in reality, he's consistently fucking up.

So yes, I'm calling for Joe Woods's head. I'm not expecting the overall scheme to change. We can keep our base defense and everything we've worked on in training camp. However, when the defense wins, or the offense screws up, and we get them in a high leverage situation (like third and 10 with the game on the line), I need a defensive coordinator who can dial up the intensity and make the opposing QB uncomfortable. Joe Woods proved to me on Sunday that he isn't that man.


Note: "Dial up intensity" does not necessarily mean blitzing. It means doing things on the field to make the opposing QB uncomfortable and uncertain.
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I do appreciate the infographic. One thing that has irritated me in the processing of the loss is the belief that an NFL defense should be simple. It is absolutely not simple, and when run well it's the opposite of simple.

Coverages can fall into categories including, but not limited to, man (man no matter what), man match (man unless a certain set of routes occur), zone (drop to a spot with vision on the QB and WRs), or zone match (work to a spot but also match routes or receivers through the zone based on certain calls).

Up to this point, Woods has called an oversimplified defense. I'd also argue that with all these communication issues, he probably has good reason.

I like your post as the goal... but clearly the players aren't going to reach that goal if they fuck up simple calls from the sideline ATM.
 
Randolphkeys said:
I do appreciate the infographic. One thing that has irritated me in the processing of the loss is the belief that an NFL defense should be simple. It is absolutely not simple, and when run well it's the opposite of simple.

Coverages can fall into categories including, but not limited to, man (man no matter what), man match (man unless a certain set of routes occur), zone (drop to a spot with vision on the QB and WRs), or zone match (work to a spot but also match routes or receivers through the zone based on certain calls).

Up to this point, Woods has called an oversimplified defense. I'd also argue that with all these communication issues, he probably has good reason.

I like your post as the goal... but clearly the players aren't going to reach that goal if they fuck up simple calls from the sideline ATM.
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Of course. I know we've talked about how coverages work in the past. You know that I'm very fond of the Saban tree, which is about as complex and demanding as it gets, especially from the safeties. I don't think Delpit could handle a year at Alabama right now, but he needs to get there.

One of the things we both agree on that separates Woods from guys like Bowles and Spags is the way coverages are called. I still haven't seen the split-field reads that are hallmarks of what I feel good defenses are. I see zone across the field. What I'd like to see, let's say that it's 10 formation with trips field side. I'd like to see the default coverage be match zone on the trips side, and man on the one-on-one side, with cover 2 over the top.

Based on Woods's tenure in Denver and his years here, I don't think the communication problems are due to scheme complexity. I don't think simple concepts are the answer. I think there are literal communication problems, where players aren't hearing the call.

I'm still going to pound the table until I'm blue in the face that Woods has not shown the ability to call correct plays in high leverage situations. I'm fine with his first and second down philosophy. When we get an opponent into third and long, sitting back in the same soft zone coverage scheme is wholly unacceptable.
 
SuperSurge said:
Oh trust me I'm as excited as anyone about everything in your post. Obviously this defense shouldn't be anything like last year. I just pray we aren't relying on rookies and free agents again by the end of the year.

Health and scheme should be the only things that hold back this defense. Health is out of our control and as of now, Joe Woods is a TBD on his performance.
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So what happened to TAKITAKI??? I haven’t heard his name or seen him make a play in the first two games? Is he injured or no longer on the roster?
 
Triplethreat said:
I’m pretty convinced @Randolphkeys is Joe Woods at this point
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I can't stand stupid pot shots like this.

Keys just skews more on the conservative, trust the process, trust the organization side. He isn't nearly as reactionary as the trash that goes on in every game thread. This specific topic is one where I disagree with him on, but taking cheap shots like this helps nobody.

Ideally you'd be able to contribute to the conversation--find something Keys said that you disagree with and elaborate on the point. Bring up something new that hasn't been mentioned. That's when this amalgamation of thousands of Cleveland fans is at its best.
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
So what happened to TAKITAKI??? I haven’t heard his name or seen him make a play in the first two games? Is he injured or no longer on the roster?
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He's actually been playing more than I like.

He looks like the starting SAM to me. It's just that we don't play many 3 LB sets.

On Sunday he had an opportunity to go after the QB and dropped back to cover nobody before finally realizing it and rushing too late.
 
Triplethreat said:
I’m pretty convinced @Randolphkeys is Joe Woods at this point
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Easy there, chick on her way to Westlake Cheesecake Factory. We defend who we defend, don't we?

In this case, I'll just point to the calendar. If the rough edges don't round into form at the bye week, you will see me call him out. It's just too early to light torches and sharpen pitchforks.

There are other very real issues with this team besides Joe Woods. Nobody has been talking about special teams failures. Hardly a single sentence dedicated to Taven Bryan and Jordan Elliott looking like trash. Barely any discussion of the possibility that Delpit can't play free safety in any system.
 
Randolphkeys said:
Easy there, chick on her way to Westlake Cheesecake Factory. We defend who we defend, don't we?

In this case, I'll just point to the calendar. If the rough edges don't round into form at the bye week, you will see me call him out. It's just too early to light torches and sharpen pitchforks.
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We shouldn't have to spend the first quarter of every season having a garbage defense, though.
 
Ohio said:
We shouldn't have to spend the first quarter of every season having a garbage defense, though.
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This front office isn't about blowing the cap room for veterans. We learned that in 2020 with the linebackers. We saw it again this year with defensive tackles and receivers not named Amari. Berry expects young guys to improve when given opportunities.

The patience for the offense was short in week one, patience for Joe Woods is short this week. Let's see if some of these weak points improve.

On the plus side, the linebackers have become the strength of the defense in two years.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
Nope.


I agree with you that Ray Lewis is an awful comp though. He's not a physically dominating, run-stuffing, big hitting MLB.

Polamalu is actually a good comp. A demon around the line of scrimmage that can also cover.

But JOK is nowhere near the player in coverage that Polamalu was.
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I mean to say that the game has changed and JOK is explosive. I don’t watch enough football to say the right comp. Troy is a pretty good comp how he used to play downhill and was such a missile, but JOK is stronger. The anticipation isn’t at that level but holy sh*t the closing speed.

Anyway, I am feeling a takeover against Pitt. Dominance.
 
Randolphkeys said:
Easy there, chick on her way to Westlake Cheesecake Factory. We defend who we defend, don't we?

In this case, I'll just point to the calendar. If the rough edges don't round into form at the bye week, you will see me call him out. It's just too early to light torches and sharpen pitchforks.

There are other very real issues with this team besides Joe Woods. Nobody has been talking about special teams failures. Hardly a single sentence dedicated to Taven Bryan and Jordan Elliott looking like trash. Barely any discussion of the possibility that Delpit can't play free safety in any system.
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I expected our DT's to look like trash. I was very, very worried that Perrion Winfrey's "third third" was going to turn that pick into a bust.

I'm not as concerned with Delpit as his play on the field should make me. If I were, I'd have to be crying over the amount of money we paid Denzel Ward to look worse than Andrew Sendejo out there. I'm at the point where I almost need to see Delpit with a competent, in-tune secondary (or another DC) to make a judgment. And yes, it's entirely possible that Delpit is one of the primary reasons for the secondary's disjointedness--but I'm not positive that's the case and I don't know what information could come out that would cement that for me.

For the onside kick, I just give props to that Jets guy who laid out like Superman to bat the ball back towards his teammates. It seems like we're trying to solve the return situation. We addressed it in the offseason with Jakeem. We're trying to address it again. I liked Ford returning kicks. I still hate Felton returning punts.

The fact that there are other issues on this team doesn't mean that Joe Woods's performance is any better or worse. I think it's entirely fair for people to focus on the conversation they want to without someone saying "Why aren't you talking about these other things? Huh?"

One that you didn't put out there--I think, occasionally, this front office gets away from our scouting (which I think is very good) and drafts people purely based on data. I feel there are certain picks that were almost entirely analytics based, like Jordan Elliott. He reminded me of those awful, untalented receivers we used to draft on day 3.
 
natedagg said:
I mean to say that the game has changed and JOK is explosive. I don’t watch enough football to say the right comp. Troy is a pretty good comp how he used to play downhill and was such a missile, but JOK is stronger. The anticipation isn’t at that level but holy sh*t the closing speed.

Anyway, I am feeling a takeover against Pitt. Dominance.
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Wait, what?

Are you Los? Because I was responding to Los calling JOK a safety.
 
CBBI said:
I would be very surprised if the Browns actually fired Woods during the season.

That sort of drastic change so early in the season seems to completely go against the process oriented system they have place from DePodesta to Berry to Stefanski and on down.

After the season, sure. But that just doesn't seem like something they would do during the year.
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I am not so sure that it’s completely incongruent to let him go. If we try out one of our assistants, it’d be the same system, perhaps ran by someone who has more of a knack for the play calling and situational awareness. We can try them out without pressure and start back channeling other coaches now, in case they don’t work out.

I do agree that AB won’t do anything wild unless there’s a plan or Jimmy makes him, but never say never, especially if we see the players demonstrate that Woods has lost the team.

O/u is 38 and at 4 points spread to keep it clean, we are looking at a 21-17 expected score. If we make the Steelers’ O look good, there might be a problem. I still have JOK coming up with a sack, a fumble, and a pick, so I am not tripping.
 
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